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My $.02
In the (unlikely) event that you are a victim of an armed robbery, decide to engage the criminal, and manage to get control of the firearm, I envision the one of three things happening.
1 – you’ve succesfully incapacitated the criminal, and can do as you please (wave down a motorist, tie up the criminal with your shoelaces, scream \”fire, fire\” etc.)
2 – the criminal isn’t incapacitated, but seeing that both you have his gun and are not a cooperative victim, he’ll run for the hills. Afterall, he knows you won’t shoot him in the back.
And 3 – the criminal isn’t incapacitated, and either the gun is fake, or he’s just really dumb/high on something, decides to go toe-to-toe with you. At which point, you’d THEN incapacitate him.
What would I do? I’d give the guy my wallet. I never carry so much cash on me that I couln’t afford to lose it. That’s why I carry plastic. I can’t even afford to loose a buck! 😆
Agree – However:
Keep in mind that in the event that you are able to successfully disarm someone you don’t know the condition of their weapon. As stated previously it may be fake, may not be functional, may not be loaded or it might even be loaded with the wrong caliber ammunition (and therefore not functional).
The point is, the attacker may \”retreat,\” but he may not; The fight may still be there, and there may be multiple assailants – Don’t just assume that because you have successfully disarmed someone that the confrontation is over.
Sledge Hammer-
No offense intended and I really do like the forum for all of the different opinions. So please don’t take this the wrong way :-), you make some good points, but I think that when you say \”unlikely\” you sound a little like you don’t really think that it could happen. I personally train like it is more likely that it will happen. I train, both physically and mental from a disadvantage in everything I do. Unfortunatly some feel that Iam at a mental disadvantage often.. LOL.
This is from the UCR (uniformed crime report)
\”In 2004, there were an estimated 1,367,009 violent crimes nationwide. Of these, aggravated assaults comprised 62.5 percent; robbery, 29.4 percent; forcible rape, 6.9 percent; and murder, 1.2 percent.\”If you are beaten, robbed, raped, et cetera, you are now a witness, perhaps the only witness to a felony… You may be completly compliant and still be attacked.People can do very unexpected things. Just as an example, the recent attack in the UK at the bus station. The kids were stabbed and one was killed, they were just waiting at the bus stop.
My point is to just be careful and don’t expect compliance to work either.
How about this for a scenario:
I am threatened with a gun. I believe I am about to be shot, so I perform a gun defense and take-a-way, then create space and point the weapon at the attacker. What if the attacker, for whatever reason (crazy, enraged, etc.) decides to rush me? If I shoot am I employing unnecessary force? If I use non-lethal force (i.e. Krav or other hand to hand method) I run the risk of the attacker re-establishing control of the weapon. I don’t believe that civilians are taught weapon retention techniques and I’m not sure I would want to take that gamble even if I was trained in weapon retention. Coments?
I would say Yes because he had the intention of using lethal force against you. What was his intention… To either cause serious physical injury and or death. You would be justified in pulling the trigger.
Thanks Tomoe, that was exactly the kind of response I was looking for, some insight from a police point of view.
In this scenario, it could easily happen that I fit the description of the \”guy with a gun\”, since it’s possible that witnesses may not see the whole altercation, just hear a commotion, look out the window and see me pointing the gun at the other guy. The police has now reason to believe that I am the perpetrator and armed and dangerous.
If they warn me I can comply of course, but it’s possible that they are behind me, where I can’t see them initially and either shoot right away, or order me to turn around, I turn and they see the gun, assume I’m going to shoot and thus shoot first.
Considering that, it may be a bad idea to point the gun at the attacker for too long. If he doesn’t run away on his own, just tell him to take off, don’t try to keep him for police. If he rushes you, I think you would be justified to fire. Of course, it may not be a real gun, then the fight continues.
Thinking about the possibility of being shot by an officer, who might mistake you for a bad guy, if you have some way to go before you’d be safe at home, but pass by a dumpster on the way, would it be safer to throw the gun in there, run home, call police and tell them where you hid the weapon? On the plus side, you would no longer be carrying the gun, on the down side, someone else might find it and cause injury to himself or others.
I think working on weapon retention can be important, even for civilians. In the scenario we have just described, or also during a home invasion/robbery. Maybe you hear voices, grab your gun, walk through the house, the robber surprises you, is able to get a grip on it, there is a struggle, now you have to make sure not to let him take it.
I know we have weapon retention techniques in KM, but looks like they are only being taught to law enforcement. Is there a reason for this, or could we work on them sometimes in LV5 or 4/5 or so? One time Darren was showing rifle retention, that was pretty cool, unfortunately it was only once and I don’t remember much of it now.
I was taught to shoot center mass and shoot until the attacker is no longer a threat. This instruction set was to keep it simple. No head shots, no leg shots, no shots to with the intent to only disable. Any time you would do it diffently?
Center mass is probably the best idea. I went to the shooting range only once, but immediately learned how hard it is to actually hit anything with a gun, even a relatively close, large target. If you aim at center mass, odds are you’ll hit at least something.
Bad guys are wearing body armor these days. There was a documentary done on a group of white supremacists and they showed how they are wearing body resistant vests. They are not the only ones, other gangs are doing it and just your run of the mill bad guy.
I train with many different scenarios but I always work on shot placement to multiple targets. This means, 2 center mass, 1 head or 3 center mass, 1 head, 1 groin and so on. I do not focus all my rounds in one area. I only aim for those three places, not arms, middle fingers, feet, et cetera.
Also, please don’t throw that gun in a dumpster or leave it anywhere. You never know where a child could come across it. Please, take it to the nearest place where you can call for the po po. If you are worried about freaking everyone else around you out, then hide it.
Surely you will have an empty pocket, waistband, bag, and the such. Look in the dumpster for one. It could hold valuable forensic information and with your help, LE may be able to put a face with that weapon and match it to a crime or series of crimes.
But it is entirely up to you, go where your moral compass points you. 🙂
(I just heard that on TV and I liked it)!Oh I forgot-
Here is weapon retention for civilians 101:
If you did a gun takeaway and they rush you, you want to keep the gun (because it is a working weapon)… put your front sight up on their big hairy chest and pull the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard. Do what ever it takes to hold on to the gun, and always put them back into the line of fire. We know from doing defeses how simple it is to end up back in the line of fire. If they shot fails, be prepared to kick first, a good defensive front and work on clearing the weapon, if you know how.
I am a fan of everyone taking an 8 hour shooting class and learning how to deal with malfunctions. If they try to rush you and it is not a functioning weapon, don’t screw with it and kick their @$$!
🙂
Two rounds in rapid succession to center mass is typically what’s taught to civilians, although as Tomoe points out, that may not be good enough due to body armor. At the range I typically practice two to center mass and one to the head – Similar to what Tomoe describes. Also keep in mind that it ain’t like the movies. Bad guys don’t immediately drop when they’ve been hit. Handguns are not the preferred weapon for self defense (IMO shotguns are the best for home) though they (handguns) are commonly used to commit crimes. Point being, from what I’ve read / been taught, it’s not uncommon for someone hit with a round from a handgun to continue attacking, unless a vital organ is hit.
The only other things I would add: Never leave the scene unless staying there is unsafe – You don’t want to appear as though you were \”getting away\” as it makes you appear guilty. Also, Be the first to call the police – You should be on the phone immediately, describing what happened, who you are, what you’re wearing etc … If you don’t have a cell phone with you (bad idea for a lot of reasons these days), you should be screaming for help, asking others to call the police – IMHO being the first to report the altercation is extremely important in any self defense situation – Otherwise, it may appear suspicious that you waited to call – Even worse, if the bad guy gets away he goes home and calls the police, saying someone attacked him and describes YOU. Finally, keep the attacker at gunpoint for as long as possible, it could be that they are faking injury, the initial shock of being hit wears off and they attack again, or worse they have another firearm. However, the caveat to that is it’s best to not be standing there with a gun when police arrive – If you are, COMPLY IMMEDIATELY with LE commands, and don’t be indignant with the police when they treat you as a suspect – You are one until it’s all sorted out.
quote :Here is weapon retention for civilians 101:If you did a gun takeaway and they rush you, you want to keep the gun (because it is a working weapon)… put your front sight up on their big hairy chest and pull the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard.
I like that 😀
Re:
[quote=\”Tomoe_Gozen\”]Sledge Hammer-
No offense intended and I really do like the forum for all of the different opinions. So please don’t take this the wrong way :-), you make some good points, but I think that when you say \”unlikely\” you sound a little like you don’t really think that it could happen.
I’m not really sure what I would take offense to. Everyone is entitled to speak their mind. When I said it is \”unlikely\” that such an event will happen, that’s because statistically, the chances are remote. And I doubt it will happen to me. Violent crimes happen every day, and a lot of time they happen to people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time. But how many people in your school have ever been held up by gun point? It’s probably a lot less than people think. Swimming pools kill three times more people each year than guns.
But the chances are still slim. Time of day, occupation and geographical location are three variables that you have control over to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Here’s a situation…It’s 0200 and I’m alone, walking to my car after a night out. Do I take the short-cut through the unlit alley? Or stay on the busy thoroughfare?
When I train, I train for the possibility that it will happen. It could happen to me on my way to my car tonight. And I’m prepared. But do I think it will happen tonight? No. If I thought like that I would’ve called in sick. (Wish I would have)
But we were talking about a mugging. The individual wants your wallet, purse or watch. If you comply, they will more than likely be done with you. If they wanted to kill you, they wouldn’t ask for your wallet. They’d walk up behind you, put the gun to the base of your head, and shift through your pockets once you were taking a dirt nap.
During college, in Baltimore City, three of my best friends were held up at gun point. One was held up twice. Each time they handed over the \”goods\” and the gun toting criminal fled the sceen. Were they ever apprehended? No chance. The police come, write the report, take a description of the individual (late teens – early 20’s, tee shirt and jeans, fled on foot). And that’s it. There’s no sketch artist getting composites. And each time, with a little common sense (which at the time I didn’t have either) they all could have been avoided.
Besides, witnesses suck at identifying criminals. Can we at least agree on that? 😆
Well, I know of three people who have been held at gun point and/or beaten (still at gunpoint).
#1) Another student where I train was closing his business up at night. He attempted to go out the rear entrance, which is upstairs. You walk down the stairs to get to the parking. He was jumped by two armed suspects, I think one had a screwdriver… Anyway, he ended up throwing both of of the balcony. One was severly injured, but both managed to take off. I don’t know what happened after that.
#2) A student was cashing his paycheck at a bank, just like everyone does, when two masked men came in with guns. They robbed the bank and both fled. Moments later, one came back and demanded money and jewelry from the customers. The student did a gun to the front defense and the suspect and the student were taken down at gunpoint by SWAT. Obviously it all worked out for the student, but not the suspect. He was not in a bad place, (dark alley) or at a bad time (0200 hours).
#3) The last student was walking down a regular street at 1800 hours and was struck over the head with a metal mallet. The suspect then continued to beat him until he lost conciousness, robbed him, took off. This suspect got 5 years for robbery.
#5) A student had gotten in a fender bender on a major highway in the middle of the day. Both pulled of to the side of the road. The guy who hit him gave no indication of what he was about to do. The student bent down to look at the damage to the fender when he was kicked in the face. His nose was broken and the suspect drove off. I don’t know what happened to the suspect.
I am sure there are more, I just have only heard about these. My instructor posts them on the wall with the permission of the students involved.
My point is that $hit happens regardless of what day, time, or location. You are right though, you can increase the odds that this wont happen by avoiding the obvious places. I do that also, I dont go to bars (esp. where I work), avoid elevators at night, don’t go running on the trail at odd hours, et cetera.
I just worry when people say that it wont happen to them. I hear that from victims all the time. \”I never thought it would happen to me\”. They weren’t all \”walking in an unlit alley\”.
BTW, Guns don’t kill, people do and your right, witness’ suck at giving accurate information on suspects. What I have also learned is that the responding officer or detective sucks equally as well at cognative interviews and getting necessary details from them. 🙂
Your right, everyone is entitled to their opinion, just some people appear to take things a little literal at times and get offended. Not me though, my skins like leather… 🙂
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