September 25, 2007 at 8:53 pm #30216
Hey, did anyone see the Human Weapon episode about the Marine Corps and its MCMAP program? I thought it was interesting, some great obstacle courses.
There was a headlock from the side defense seen in the background that looked very similar to ours. The gun defense looked more like Moni’s, though, takeaway without a counter.
I thought the bear hug from behind with arms free defense was odd, they gave elbows the way we do, but then they bend down to grab the leg and go for a rolling knee bar. I don’t know, but it seemed to be a bit of a complicated move for the Marine Corps. You end up on the ground fumbling for your knee bar, while maybe other armed men jump you. Or the initial attacker could have a weapon as well.
We practiced the rolling knee bar sometimes when Oleg Taktarov was still teaching at the NTC, it’s not that easy to pull off. If you are going to grab the leg, why not pull it forward and push the attacker back, landing on top of him (and maybe still do a knee bar from there, if you wanted to). Seems as though that might be easier. Or, if you are armed, simply pull a knife and stab the guy behind you.
GiantkillerSeptember 26, 2007 at 3:15 pm #56538mike-gMember
I saw it…it was pretty good. If any of you missed it and don’t want to wait for the next time it airs on the History Channel here is a link to the episode on veoh. http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1199868CAkDFZm4?searchId=1830329129434773725&rank=12
They have all the Human Weapon Episodes on there so far minus the commercials.
GK…just guessing as to why they do the rolling knee bar instead of picking the leg up while lowering your weight and sitting back. I learned the latter in another martial art and while it seemed to work ok for me I think it was because I was pretty strong and could always lift the leg or grab their pants leg and lift up while sitting back. Somebody not as strong can lean forward dropping their body weight (becoming dead weight) pretty much immobilizing the leg they grab and letting gravity do the rest to take them off balance making the roll possible whereas the other way may take more strength.
Just a guess though.September 26, 2007 at 3:59 pm #56539
Guessing but it seems like the reason their taking that route is because of the flak jackets and equipment. Mobility side to side is limited and its heavy. Spining and sliding out under the arms would be harder. May just be easier to do with equipment.
Excellent episode. Thanks again MikeSeptember 26, 2007 at 8:57 pm #56540
Hey, if they have all episodes, maybe you can watch the KM one, too. Also Escrima. They were all pretty good.
I wonder if the KM defense of taking the finger and spinning would work for them? As I have said, we did the rolling knee bar with Oleg Taktarov sometimes and I wasn’t all that easy to pull off. Also, as a shorter person, it’s not all that easy to really hurt the leg, or even break it. But I suppose it could work with more practice, but what about being on the ground, while there may be other hostiles coming up? Hopefully, you’d be able to get back up quickly and don’t get too tangled up with the attacker’s body.
GiantkillerSeptember 26, 2007 at 9:14 pm #56542
I’ve seen all of the episode completely on line. Those I couldn’t find my buddy Mike found for me.
In the episode, the Marine trainers were being a bit PC,but not mincing words as to their intent. Their not looking to submit that leglock. Their looking to snap the leg off, get up and beat the guy to death with his own leg
Worse comes to worse you miss the leg and roll out and over the guy, maybe smashing his head into the ground on a header. I’m also sure they have a few variations of defense for the attack. Can’t judge a system by one technique.
Their considerations are different than a civilian version, from ROE to hostiles intents to equipment. I wish our Marine buddy still posted here. He was a Brown Belt in it. Hopefully He’s a CHPofficer by nowSeptember 26, 2007 at 9:22 pm #56544
Hopefully, the snapping off would work. I just know from training that just putting enough pressure to make someone tap can be a challenge sometimes (especially if that person is quick and flexible), so there is always the possibilty that with all of the pressure of a real attack it may not be working as well as it should. But maybe then a Marine could abandon the move and pull a knife or other weapon on the opponent.
GiantkillerSeptember 26, 2007 at 9:30 pm #56545
Or may worried that if they just break the grip the opponent pulls his knife and all other \”What If’s\”. Either way it looks like a great programSeptember 26, 2007 at 10:43 pm #56546clfmakMember
I think the rolling kneebar is a alright technique IF things start to go wrong. Once you make them fall down, there are ways to attack the knee without going to the ground like that (for example, you can use your knee against their knee joint like the finishing move in this sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtciJ0Me0F0&mode=related&search= ). However, if they hold onto your jacket, or if they start to shrimp, some of your options don’t work, so its good to have the option to drop into the rolling kneebar (and depending on how they struggle you can get a heel hook, which in my opinion is one of the most destructive ways to damage someone unarmed). Personally, I think if you’re not going to train a whole lot in martial arts, you’re better off learning to throw elbows, then when you have a little space, you should turn to face them and continue fighting or moving back so you can draw some kind of weapon.September 26, 2007 at 11:23 pm #56549
Throwing elbows and turning is what we usually do in KM. If the opponent’s head is tucked, so you can’t reach his head with your elbows, you can also stomp on his foot, hit the back of his hand and then go for a finger, push it back to create leverage (and possibly break it), then spin out and give more combatives.
GiantkillerSeptember 26, 2007 at 11:36 pm #56551
That’s an interesting kneebar in the video. Might have to be done fast, though.
GiantkillerSeptember 26, 2007 at 11:49 pm #56552
[quote:0c2f584b33=\”Giant Killer\”]Throwing elbows and turning is what we usually do in KM. If the opponent’s head is tucked, so you can’t reach his head with your elbows, you can also stomp on his foot, hit the back of his hand and then go for a finger, push it back to create leverage (and possibly break it), then spin out and give more combatives.
Thats the point GK, doesn’t mean the same move isn’t in the MCMAP techniques. Just wasn’t flashy enough to show for the producers,who decide what they want to show. Or spining ouT is hard to do in a flak jacket with a canteen and ammo hanging off your sides. Too many things to get hung up on. As you’ve learned various solutions to problems in krav, I’m sure they do as well. Considering the USMC is one of the nations top problem solving organizations 😆 and have been for over 200 years
I miss Prekarious1 🙁 He’d right your ship 😉
Hope your doing well, you too C
Dog Brothers in Nov? And your posting San Soo on a krav board 😆September 27, 2007 at 6:19 am #56555clfmakMember
A few years ago I picked up a manual at an army surplus store. It’s entitled \”Hand to Hand Fighting: Karate/Tae Kwon Do (ST 31-204)\”. There’s the kneebar against an opponent behind you, but it involves sitting down on the knee as you pull up on the foot, rather than turining sideways on the ground.quote \”unstpabl1\:
I’ll definitely be attending the gathering (I plan on fighting this time 😈 ). As for the san soo- I actually think most of that technique in the video is pretty goofy, but I’ve been known to use that standing kneebar after a kick catch takedown.September 27, 2007 at 10:26 pm #56572
Well, I certainly wasn’t trying to diss the Marine Corps, just thought it looked like an odd technique at first glance, because one would think in most cases soldiers would just pull out a knife and stab the Mofo, plain, simple and effective. 🙂
But you are right, this is probably just one of several techniques and this one looked the coolest.
Don’t know what happened to Prekarious, maybe he’s still stuck on his motorcycle.
Yes, the San Soo technique looked a bit complicated, von hinten durch die Brust ins Auge, as the Germans say, but the kneebar looked good, gotta try that one.
GiantkillerSeptember 27, 2007 at 11:24 pm #56573mike-gMember
die bedeutung ist in der ubersetzung verloren.September 28, 2007 at 5:52 am #56575desert-hunterMember
Re:quote \”Giant Killer\:
Maybe the knife was dropped or can’t be reached. 🙁 You can’t call a timeout. Or maybe that haji knows Krav knife defenses too. Just never know what you’ll run into out there. Personally I prefer the shooting method using 30mm gun or rockets for a nice dispatch to the hereafter. Less wear on the grunts’ uniform and gear that way. 😈
Back to my seat.
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