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Greetings all. First-timer here.
I have a basic question regarding a hypothetical scenario involving a mugging, in which a person in a carkpark (let’s say) puts a gun to your head and demands your wallet or purse.
Now, assume for the sake of argument, I am very well-trained in gun disarms and have practised doing so also to the point of reflex. Let’s assume I could easily disarm the thug’s gun.
My question is: how should I respond to this situation? Should I:
a) execute the necessary KM actions to remove his weapon
or
b) give him my wallet and run?
The reason I ask is that I recently read a very interesting and informative article by a writer called Sam Harris, who wrote an article on his website called The Truth About Violence. Consider the following extract:
quote :If someone puts a gun to your head and demands your purse or wallet, hand it over immediately and run. Don’t worry about being shot in the back: If your attacker is going to shoot you for running, he was going to shoot you if you stayed in place, and at point-blank range. By running, you make yourself harder to kill.This seems like the appropriate action to take, since it potentially avoids injury to either person involved. But my problem is exactly that: what if I hand the money and run, and do get shot? Should I have disarmed him in that case? Assuming I have the necessary skill to disarm him, am I putting myself more at risk by not using KM, than by simply trying to avoid violence in this encounter?
I am curious to know what your views on this are, particularly from those experienced in KM, and above all from those who are instructors.
Thank you and I look forward to your replies,
Chris
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Weapons disarms are a last resort, and dicey for even the most proficient KM practitioners. I’m not sure about the running, either. I would think if you are asked for money that you give it up and hope the mugger goes away. You only attempt a disarm if you determine you will be harmed. For instance, if you are told to get into a car.
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
IMO/E, there are very few absolutes (i.e. saying “always” do this or “never” do that). No cookie cutter answers for your scenario/situation – going to depend on each individual victim and what he/she is experiencing/believing. Bad things (e.g. getting shot) could happen whether you choose to 1. cooperate fully, 2. fight for your life, 3. run for your life. Whatever you choose to do, it’s most likely going to be the best choice your brain/body came up with at the time. Go with it, be prepared for things to go awry/worse and do the best you can. That’s all you can do at the moment. If things happen to go bad, don’t second guess yourself afterwards – even if you had chosen something different, it doesn’t mean the outcome would have been any different.
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
In a scenario like that, commit fully or not at all. Once you start to do something, be it run or fight, don’t change your mind mid-action unless circumstances change. Avoid getting in a vehicle if directed to.
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Thanks for the replies. I think bear34 made a very good point: A disarm should probably only be attempted if it is truly clear your life is in danger; eg. being told to get in the car.
In fact, here is the remainder of the paragraph I quoted:
quote :Any attempt to move you, even by a few feet—backing you off a sidewalk and into an alley, forcing you behind a row of bushes—is unacceptable and should mobilize all your physical and emotional resources.Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Is there anyone else who can offer insight or thoughts?
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
quote Don:IMO/E, there are very few absolutes (i.e. saying “always” do this or “never” do that). No cookie cutter answers for your scenario/situation – going to depend on each individual victim and what he/she is experiencing/believing. Bad things (e.g. getting shot) could happen whether you choose to 1. cooperate fully, 2. fight for your life, 3. run for your life. Whatever you choose to do, it’s most likely going to be the best choice your brain/body came up with at the time. Go with it, be prepared for things to go awry/worse and do the best you can. That’s all you can do at the moment. If things happen to go bad, don’t second guess yourself afterwards – even if you had chosen something different, it doesn’t mean the outcome would have been any different.What Don said
Martial arts are an attempt to organize chaos which cannot be done. Otherwise it wouldn’t be chaos. The training of set responses to common attacks is an attempt to drill the subconcious mind(SCM) to react to a situation.
The challenge is in how the scenario actually plays out. Thats where scenerio training and role playing can help. The real problem is life is unpredictable, violence more so. Even in training your partner may not move the way you want him to or play by the rules and make you look bad
Only you will be able to make the decision and it will be based on the attacker, who your with, your mood, whether you’ve been drinking or not, who’s around, etc, etc…and I think the SCM plays a huge role in what you do which is why soldiers are drilled(rehearsed0 so hard to behave a certain way….most say that they didn’t know what they did BUT their training took over
As Don said there are no cookie cutter answers and you’ll probably second guess the event after for a long time either way
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
quote donjon:i must say it is nice informative shareLooks like our old spammer pal donjon finally noticed that the mods deleted his sig/spam. It’s back and so is he. 😡
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
As we say here in Blighty “it’s horses for courses”.
However an option I like is to carry some ‘mugging money’. Get an old wallet. Stick in a few worthless banknotes and coins (good use for all those Euros you brought back from holiday and can’t be bothered changing). You can also add a few ‘credit cards’. I use the loyalty cards you get from garages and supermarkets. They don’t have any details on, are worthless and can be had for the asking. You then supply your erstwhile mugger with this. Don’t hand it to him/her though. Drop it or throw it near to them (you can make this look like a nervous stumble, you probably won’t have to act being scared). Then whilst he’s recovering the wallet you can cheese it. It’s unlikely he’ll check it there and then. he’s most likely to also run now he’s got what he wanted (or so he thinks). If he does start taking pot shots at you, don’t forget to weave.
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
quote wiccaman:If he does start taking pot shots at you, don’t forget to weave.If you can dodge a bullet, you can dodge a ball! Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge!
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Look, there are a lot of reasons to be hesitant about executing a weapon defense. Off the top of my head:
1) The possibility of a failed technique resulting in a worse situation for you
2) The possibility of harming innocent bystanders even if a technique is well executed
3) The responsibility of taking possession of and possibly employing deadly force with the confiscated weapon
4) The potential liability tied to employing force instead of complying.I think you need to do a cost-benefit analysis. And I think the time to do that is NOW, not when you’re in that worst-case scenario. Don is absolutely right. Every situation is different. Not that he was implying this, but don’t take that as an excuse not to mentally prepare for as many as you can.
Know your “go buttons.” Know when you’ll react before you’re in that situation, because as Don also said, hesitation is not the right answer. Whatever choice you make, commit fully to it and follow it through. I’d caution you not to weigh number 4 too heavily, though. You’ll often hear “it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.” I think that’s often overstated and bombastic, but when your life is on the line, that’s what it comes down to. Remember, self defense is a legal term. That’s what you say in your statement (after you consult with legal advice, sleep on it, etc.). That’s not what you do. What you do is fight, for your life. If your aggresor is in a fight and you’re in a defensive mindset, you’re immediately at a disadvantage. Krav teaches you to meet and supersede an adversary’s aggression to quickly turn the situation to your advantage.
So what’s a “go button” and what’s not? Well that’s for you to decide, as unstop says. As a guideline, any sort of “get in the van” of “move over here” type sentiment should set you off. That rhetoric is well supported. Same for active or imminent shooter scenarios. What shouldn’t be a “go button”? How about “Give me your wallet?”, for one. Imagine how distraught your family and loved ones would be if you could’ve survived by losing a couple of bucks and credit cards instead of attempting a low-percentage defense and losing your life?
Just as police officers abide by a spectrum of force, you can layer yourself as well. Wiccaman offers a possible solution that I’ve used for years. Carrying a second wallet makes you less hesitant about giving it up. It’s not hard to carry in a coat pocket or off-hand back pocket (helps with spine alignment sitting down too), and gives you an extra layer of comfort when dealing with muggings and other routine street crime. You can add defensive lights like an e2D, tactical knives, kubotans, and other CCW (legality and personal comfort considered) as well.
That doesn’t mean you should be complacent. Muggings are often a prelude that lead down a road that should met with violent non-compliance. But it gives you somewhere to start. Real life is dynamic. Train that way, allowing scenarios to evolve at whimsy, and get your brain thinking that way. Work your verbal judo into your physical training and link it up. It’ll give you an edge if/when you are compelled to employ it.
Hope this helps.
Best,
-EliP.S.- I would never personally turn my back on a gunman in a conscious state to effect my escape. Too many variables I can’t control. Knife is a different story…
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Hi Eli
I endorse everything you said there. I’d also add a ‘Point 5’ to your considerations for people in the UK.
If someone points a gun at you (and you don’t know them) in the UK there’s a more than 50% chance that it’s not real or it’s a reactivated weapon or a converted blank firer.
If it’s fake, then using it to get the perp to comply is unlikely to work (unless he’s forgotten, don’t forget how thick some crims are). If it’s a reactivated/conversion then you might not want to risk using it. Nothing worse than having a slide fly of towards your face (well, apart from a bullet obviously)
Oh, and if you are going for the secondary wallet tactic make sure you hand over the fake one or you’ll feel quite daft.
I would also add something about compliance to put into the equation. Whilst a lot of gun crime is acquisitive (i.e. the sole objective is to steal something) in a significant number of cases, especially with young hoodlums, humiliation and power trips are the nature of the game. Complying might be seen as a sign of weakness and encourage further aggro. Having said that, a bit of fake compliance will give you time to assess the tactical situation and also put the attacker at ease. Both psychologically and physiologically he’ll then be at a disadvantage.
Stay safe
Al
Re: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Thanks Al. That’s a great point and it doesn’t surprise me at all, given the UK’s draconian centerfire and locking-blade legislation.
As far as dealing with it, you’ve got to consider your tactics during and after the disarm. First off, the operating mechanism of a firearm isn’t the only thing that makes it a weapon. I’d point you towards my post in this thread: https://kravmaga.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4960
So hopefully we’re doing damage when we’re inside with pistol punches, and we come away with the weapon. Then it’s tap, rack, reacquire. That’s where it gets interesting in the UK scenario. If it’s true that 50% or more of attacks involve non-functioning or unsafe handguns (why wouldn’t they just use .22s, out of curiosity?), then we have to add some cognition to “tap rack etc.” A quick field-expedient brass check once you’ve made distance is a logical first step. That’ll demonstrate fairly conclusively whether or not that is a real weapon in firing condition. In low-light conditions, that implies a feel check, btw.
If the weapon is non-firing or a fake, the former attacker’s lack of immediate compliance upon disarm might be your first indication, even prior to the brass check. However, that’s not absolute: he may fake compliance initially, planning a counterattack while you hold him at gunpoint etc. So the brass check is still necessary. If you have enough space, time, and compliance you can drop the magazine and check that as well. While you’re at it, rack the slide a bunch of times before you pop it back in to clear any double feeds or other nastiness you created during the disarm. Speaking of which, this entire exercise may be academic because of the probability of a discharge during the disarm. That is, we really are mashing the attacker’s index finger into the trigger, and the only reasons for it not to go off (once) are an activated physical safety, lack of round in the chamber, or the slide being out of battery due to the defender’s hand exerting pressure on it. Or, of course, it not being a functioning weapon. So keep that in mind.
The more interesting question is what to do if you’ve disarmed and are now in possession of a dangerous reactivated/converted weapon. Truth is, if I had any doubt about the condition of the weapon (super loose slide-frame fit, nasty re-con barrel etc.) I’d run-fu WITH the weapon and call the police, as opposed to holding the D-bag at gunpoint WHILE calling the police. That’s the only difference. I’d rather get out with my hands intact than risk being Rambo and having a slide come off on me. This is all assuming, of course, that you’re able to discern the weapon is not safe to fire. The probability is that you won’t be able to, but it’s also a moot point: an attacker carrying a weapon he believes fires will not doubt your ability to fire upon him with that weapon, and will comply whereas an attacker with a fake gun will resist without fear of being shot. Generally. Whether YOU feel like discharging a reconverted weapon really isn’t a factor for him.
Also: recently heard over on the SOCNET LEO boards that the two wallet solution may be dangerous. Apparently criminals are looking for two wallets (bulges in each back pocket, etc.) as indicators of law enforcement given the propensity of LEOs to carry badge and ID in a separate wallet from cash, cards, etc. Makes them a target. Might not want to emulate…maybe hide that second wallet elsewhere!
And regarding feigning compliance: yes. Even if it gives them an ego boost, waiting until your “go button” gets pushed means that the first decision to aggress remains with you. Know how far you’ll go before you attempt to resist, and when you decide to, do so with extreme prejudice.
Stay safe!
Best,
-EliRe: Hypothetical scenario involving a mugging
Hi Eli
As for why they don’t use .22; a quick run down of the UK’s firearms laws.
Basically, handguns (of any calibre) banned outright (except for a few exceptions such as single shot pistols for slaughtermen).
Shotguns OK so long as barrel over 24 inches but must only be able to hold two shots maximum (although with a pump or semi auto you can have 2 in the magazine + one in the spout).
Same rules for centre fire rifles. 2 in the magazine max (+ one in the spout).
.22 rimfire not restricted to how many shots so you can have a 10 round magazine say.
For any of the above you need a licence. There are separate ones for shotguns and firearms. You can generally get a shotgun licence easily enough but for a firearms certificate you need to show a good reason for the firearms you want’ such as being a member of a gun club or vermin control. Each individual weapon is listed on the certificate. They’re not a blanket pass to buy anything you want. They’ll also put a limit on the types and amounts of ammo you can buy/keep at anyone time.
So I can’t have my handguns any more and I can no longer go full bore rifle shooting (unless I want a 2 shot semi auto or a bolt action or straight pull)
Still, Draconian as these laws are at least the amount of gun crime has decreased since they were introduced, oh, hang on, no it hasn’t.
Short barreled shotguns counts as firearms (and you’d need a very good explanation as to why you needed one!). You also need a firearms ticket to buy or keep rifled slugs)
Semi auto shotguns and rifles allowed but no fully auto of any kind (including ‘clockwork’ guns like the Striker 12)
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