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Ryan, do you think that this kind of training is better than nothing? Or do the cons outweigh the pros? I agree with your critical analysis of the training, as well as the weaknesses you pointed out, but does that mean it’s not worth the time to train?
Hmmm, that’s a tough one. If it works as a catalyst to get students into ongoing training, I say yes. However, I tend to think participants come away from this thinking they’ve done all they needed to do. In that case, I think they could be worse off than before the training. People are hard-wired to defend themselves. Some ways are better than others, though, so if you’re going to train, the training should look \”real\”–I don’t think this training fits that criteria.
Ryan, looking at your above comment also in light of our debate about FMA…something just clicked.
Maybe it’s idealistic, but I assume that no one, at any point, is going to think that they’ve \”done all they needed to do\”…that’s contrary to the whole point of training in the first place.
But you’re right, I suppose too often people think this…that once they’ve been exposed to something, it’ll always be there, always accessible…whether it’s one particular style, or certain self-defense training methods.
So, how do we make sure that people who are training, regardless of what the training is, pursue better and more effective and continued training, since that is what will make them safer?
\”Maybe it’s idealistic, but I assume that no one, at any point, is going to think that they’ve ‘done all they needed to do’\”
If that is the case, why don’t organizations like IMPACT offer ongoing training? I run into people all the time who tell me, \”Oh, I took a self defense class when I was in college/the academy/et al.\”
People want quick fixes. People want easy answers. People want things to work syllogistically. This is why concept/principle-driven systems are \”hard\”. People want to put the responsibility on someone else. \”Well, you said, if ‘this’, then ‘that’.\” People don’t want to hear, \”it depends\”, or \”the situation will dictate.\” That requires thinking and training.
Do they also teach you actual self-defense moves, such as choke defenses, or do they just attack and then you have to come up with your own stuff? We’ve had one or two \”suit seminars\”, which I suppose are the same thing. I haven’t participated in those, but it looked interesting. Alien football player is right.
I guess it’s a good thing to be able to really hit, but then again, with all of that padding the attackers don’t look too realistic. They teach to strike the eye for example, but in reality the eye will be much smaller, so the same strike might be a lot harder, if not impossible to do. It looks like something that might be good idea to do once in a while in addition to KM, but I don’t think I would substitute it for it.
They teach actual moves. We face various scenarios including being thrown to the ground, being pinned, choked and pinned, and being forced on the stomach and/or hands and knees (that’s pretty rough ~ some women broke down). They are verbally abusive during the attacks, which makes it all the more intense. We were told to expect it to be even rougher this Saturday, so now I’m terribly curious.
The eye strike is with our fingers (the hand position is kinda hard to explain), and we’re allowed to really aim for where the eyes would be without fear of hurting the instructor. I don’t think that’s a huge problem. Frankly, I doubt I’d have a problem finding a rapist’s eyes, with or without Impact. If anything, that would be my first instinct.
As for the attackers not looking or moving realistically, I assure you…they move just fine. And it was surprisingly hard to hit them in the beginning, even with the helmet. During my first fight, I hit him twice when he grabbed me from behind. When I spun around to face him (I was hoping to kick or knee him), I froze the minute I saw his \”face.\” It took quite a few trys to feel comfortable striking.
I would very much like to see if someone could come up with an Impact/KM hybrid for women. I say \”for women\” because we do face different issues (physically and psychologically) and have different strengths.
Why not take the best of both programs and make them available? I know more women would go for that before they’d try KM alone (and that’s not a judgment of KM ~ it’s more of a generalization of women based on my experience).
I got a call from a friend of mine today who teaches KM. He was concerned, because he teaches a women’s class that utilizes one of the FIST suits. Look, I’m not saying they aren’t good tools, but just like anything else, it’s about context. If I have a perfectly good hammer, but I need a screwdriver…
I happen to think that the suits have a place (a small one), as long as the goals are kept in mind, and the training mirrors the goals. Oh, and I’m sorry, but there is no way someone can move \”naturally\” in one of those things (besides the fact that facial expressions are completely hidden.)
Honestly Ryan, I knew prior to posting this that a few would reply with criticism. That’s cool. It’s healthy. My main objective was to post a review, not to defend the program.
I’m also happy to answer questions about the program.
I *don’t* want to argue back and forth about how well my instructors moved in their suits. I was there. I worked with them for 12 hours. They moved quite well. Mind you, I’m not saying they weren’t restricted (only they could tell you how restricted they were). But they appeared to move quite comfortably.
It would be interesting if KM instructors took the Impact model and reworked it to where *they* felt it was worthwhile training. But certain aspects of the program would need to stay in place like:
1) the specific rape scenarios
2) working with verbal confrontations (that’s very hard for many of us)
3) the cheerleader, all girl type atmosphere ~ it’s important in the beginning. I suspect if training was ongoing, women would learn to lessen any (IF any) dependence they might have on it.
Those are just my initial thoughts anyway and, if I may state the obvious, coming from a new student’s perspective.
quote :When I spun around to face him (I was hoping to kick or knee him), I froze the minute I saw his \”face.\”I had a similar experience in private training with my instructor – he has a SPEAR suit that he uses for seminars so that we can try out the techniques with some (but not full) contact. We tested it out when he first got it and I’ll be the first to admit that once he put the helmet on, I found it quite a bit different to defend against a faceless attacker instead of a familiar face. I had the same experience, to a lesser degree, in a knife seminar a few months later – it was a great reminder that being attacked by a stranger is going to feel VERY different from being attacked by a classmate!
quote :I would very much like to see if someone could come up with an Impact/KM hybrid for women. I say \”for women\” because we do face different issues (physically and psychologically) and have different strengths.We’re trying to get a women’s program going here in Houston, because you’re right – it’s just different. Guys can be as empathetic to the needs of women as they want, but there’s still a tiny gap there since being a woman is not something they can actually experience first hand. My brother helped me move a couple of weeks ago and we got onto the topic of home invasion – he said he’s never once worried about someone breaking into his house in the middle of the night and raping him, but I would be willing to bet that 99% of women have had that fear to varying degrees. I also think that a program/class geared towards women would address the physical/psychological issues that you mentioned better than in a mixed class. I’m definitely not picturing the cheerleader type atmosphere, though, but that might just be because that is so far from my personality type that I don’t get it. 🙂
As far as a hybrid class, I would personally be more in favor of taking advantage of more full/partial contact opportunities in Krav than branching out to something different. I’ve never taken an IMPACT class, but I did try (unsuccessfully) to take a RAD class in grad school, which I think is fairly similar. My only real concern is that I do think that for any system to work, you have to practice and practice and practice until some or all of it becomes second nature – I wouldn’t get that from a weekend course, no matter how intensive it is, that runs monthly or quarterly. I love that everything we do in class builds on the techniques that we’ve already learned and that I have lots and lots of opportunities to reinforce what I know and improve on the basics.
\” ‘Maybe it’s idealistic, but I assume that no one, at any point, is going to think that they’ve ‘done all they needed to do’
If that is the case, why don’t organizations like IMPACT offer ongoing training? I run into people all the time who tell me, ‘Oh, I took a self defense class when I was in college/the academy/et al.’
People want quick fixes. People want easy answers. People want things to work syllogistically. This is why concept/principle-driven systems are \”hard\”. People want to put the responsibility on someone else. \”Well, you said, if ‘this’, then ‘that’.\” People don’t want to hear, \”it depends\”, or \”the situation will dictate.\” That requires thinking and training.\”
Great post. And good questions, Jeff.
quote :People want quick fixes. People want easy answers. People want things to work syllogistically. This is why concept/principle-driven systems are \”hard\”. People want to put the responsibility on someone else. \”Well, you said, if ‘this’, then ‘that’.\” People don’t want to hear, \”it depends\”, or \”the situation will dictate.\” That requires thinking and training.\”But on a higher level, isn’t it somewhat our responsibility to educate the people around us that it doesn’t work that way? I don’t deny that a LARGE percentage of the population is looking for the quick fix (if they’re looking for anything at all!), but rather than condemn that attitude (not saying that you are), shouldn’t we try to show them why they should think differently? It irks me to no end that my friends, coworkers and family would rather live with their collective heads in the sand rather than face the possibility that they or someone they love could be the victim of a violent attack. The people that are close to me can use all of the \”I just don’t have any free time\” or \”I can’t afford the classes\” excuses that they want, but ultimately I think it’s fear that’s keeping them from coming. It’s like the kid that squeezes his eyes shut so that he can’t see the monster in the closet, because if he doesn’t see the monster, the monster can’t possibly be real.
Nancypants
Maybe the reason is the general public go with the herd. It’s a herd mentality(I’ll do what everyone else does). The few who are not herded are proactive in most things they do. It’s the polar opposite of stickin’ your head in the sand. Therefore they continue to train and so on. We see the same thing in KM classes where a person (male or female) come for a few weeks think they get it and no longer come to class. Maybe they get it maybe they don’t, I for one will never stop training because one can never be too good at defending oneself. IMHO, Krav Maga does all those things and more.
JL – I know *why* they do it, I just refuse to accept that someone who follows the herd now will always follow the herd! I was not being proactive when I started taking Krav, I feel more like I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. It had been in the back of my mind for a number of years that I should take some kind of self defense class, but fear and laziness prevented me from ever getting past the casual research phase.
I know it’s probably very idealistic, but I just want everyone to be able to change their lives the way I have – that’s why, even after three years of failure, I haven’t stopped trying to get my friends and family into Krav. 🙂
Revancha and Ryan, I agree that people want quick fixes…I also believe that people often don’t want to think.
But also, when it comes to people’s safety, most people want 100% guarantee. Nobody thinks about the fact that you could be in a fatal car accident even if you never go above the speed limit and always wear your safety belt.
I’ve just been thinking in different ways that fear causes us our functioning to break down…in a crisis situation, and over long periods of time.
nancypants
But get past it you did, and are now proactive. Maybe you got rid of the fear of failure and went for it. As far as getting people you care about to KM, maybe baby step them to class by sharing some the things you’ve learned as well as how it has changed the way you feel. Just a thought.
I hope your right about the herded attitude changing, I just have really never seen anyone with that type of personality change to much from the comfort of the herd. Just an opinion. 🙂
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