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Curious,
I guess the best way to explain the evolution question is to have you look at the KMWW trademark symbol. When drawn correclty, the outer circle is left open in the two locations where the hebrew letters meet the outer circle. This symbolizes the open system. New ideas flow in, while outdated ideas flow out.KM is what we call an integrated system. Contrary to what many believe, law enforcement officers get only 4 to 8 hours of in service DT training per year, at the fortunate departments. Because KM is an integrated system, I can teach in 4 hours of KM, what it takes three years in martial arts to teach. Everything builds on itself. When we teach a civillian or LEO class, we try to begin with combatives, then integrate the combatives into the self defense technique we are instructing for the day. On occassion, we can put cobatives and multiple self defense move togeather, makes for great drill work at the end of the class. All our self defenses have similar philosphies. Attack the danger/weakest part of the hold, deliver simultaneous counterstrike, natural movement, must be easily taught….With this in mind while teaching and learning, KM becomes a very easy system to learn. I think it as a self-defense tool, much like a wrench or hammer, rather than something ether like, such as a martial art Katas and Forms. When explaining this to others, it is important to point out this, Yes, that may be a better and more effective way to execute, but is it easily taught in a short amount of time to all genders, ages, body types…..This way we can all bennefit quickly from training.
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As for future wepons we had quite a thread a while back about tazers and how to deal with them. I don’t think we came up with any good answers on that.[/quote]
I thought we did. It’s a projectile weapon with a trigger. Why would one not use a standard gun defense?
A good friend of mine has lymphedema and her left leg is severely swollen from the hip to the foot, and the leg is also very heavy, limiting movement and adding difficulty to walking and running. I would like for her to sign up to a self-defense program with me.
I believe it is very important for everyone to learn how to defend themselves, especially someone who is visibly less abled as they are more likely to be targeted as easy victims. Although I am concerned that Krav Magaís method of teaching, where one must learn specific techniques, might place limitations on such people. I can see it being a very frustrating environment where they are asked to perform a technique and be told to try to master it instead of allowing the student to experiment as the student knows their own body more than the instructor does (and this would extend to anyone, not just people with disabilities).
I know this would depend on the instructor, but I donít have the finances to try instructors out. I would like to learn as much about Krav Maga as I can before deciding to sign up, as I expect KMAA would be training their instructors in such a way to keep KM pure.
BTW, I see the word ìcombativesî in a lot of posts, and Iím confused by it. Isnít combatives just another word for military hand-to-hand combat training? That doesnít seem to fit the context in which the word is used here.
Curious-
I think that Krav would be better than a traditional martial art for your friend. In other styles, like TKD or Karate, your friend would be expected to master these techniques before progressing, whereas, she could probably make it through Level 1 Krav just fine (with hard work and determination) depending on the severity of her disability. Krav is a total package, mind you, but there is a lot of upper body techniques that could benefit her, not to say that she couldn’t do the lower body moves just as well (again depending on the severity and her determination).
As for learning more abut Krav before jumping in: thats a great idea, and I am sure a lot of the more knowledgable students on this forum will help you out, they really seem genuine to me when I have a question. HOWEVER, I do strongly suggest that you also take some time to learn more about the individual school and instructors you are considering. I can’t stress that enough. Krav is great, but just like everything else, sometimes you have rotten apples in the barrell. I would suggest calling or visiting the school before signing up and talking with the instructor about your friends disability to make sure that instructor is comfortable with the situation. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be, but then again, I do not instruct it. This will also give you time to be more comfortable with him/her. Take advantage of any intro offers that schools often offer… and if you aren’t 100 % comfortable with the school or the instructor, find somewhere else!
And that’s probably the best advice so far!! 😀
Try a couple of places (if you have the luxury of doing so) and take your friend with you, at least to watch, if not to participate – Then talk to the instructor … We can all only offer our opinion here – It’s up to you and her to take the leap.
So far as I can find, \”combative\” is only defined formally as an adjective (combative: marked by eagerness to fight or contend) … In KM the term is used somewhat \”looseely\” when referring to strikes used during fighting. This includes, but is certainly not limited to kicks, punches, elbows, knees, headbutts, eye gouging, etc, etc, etc …
ìCombatives is a term popularized by the US Army for hand-to-hand combat training.î, from Wikipedia. Itís rather confusing to use an existing term to rename the word ìstrikeî. Whatís wrong with the word ìstrikeî? 😉
As for checking out schools and talking to instructors, Iíve learned from experience (my own and others) that instructors can say anything to get students to sign up to their school, and only after spending a few weeks there does the student realize that the instructor deceived them, but the money has been spent. Iíd rather get a better scope on what Krav Maga itself is so that when I do speak to an instructor who claims to teach Krav Maga, but when talking to him, mentions things that arenít synonymous with KM, Iíll know to be suspicious.
JFOX wrote: ìI think that Krav would be better than a traditional martial art for your friend. In other styles, like TKD or Karate, your friend would be expected to master these techniques before progressing, whereas, she could probably make it through Level 1 Krav just fine (with hard work and determination) depending on the severity of her disability. Krav is a total package, mind you, but there is a lot of upper body techniques that could benefit her, not to say that she couldn’t do the lower body moves just as well (again depending on the severity and her determination).î
I was never interested in learning a martial art. I specifically want to learn how to defend myself in a confrontation or attack. Same thing for the people I care about. I am aware that KM have belt tests that people must pass to move up to the next level. Do those belt tests require someone to be able to perform a specific set of techniques? If they are not capable of performing those techniques, they fail and canít learn the new things taught at the higher levels? Iím particularly concerned because from reading the descriptions of the different levels on the KMAA website, weapons are only looked at starting in level 3. I wouldnít want my friend to be denied learning how to protect herself from an armed attacker because she canít perform a set of techniques.
Curious:
While I understand your frustration with the \”belt system\”, you need to keep in mind that the advanced techniques are based on principles that are taught and learned in the level one classes. Trying to focus on advanced concepts or higher level techniques is truely the same as trying to run before you walk.
I don’t know where you are located, but there are several great Krav schools all around the country. If you are wondering what the school closest to you is like, just post a question on the forum and the folks here will be happy to give you all the input they can, both good and bad.
I hope you give Krav a chance. It sounds like what you’re looking for.
Good luck, no matter what you decide.And I would add to Al’s excellent point regarding techniques builing upon each other, that:
While I may be wrong, as I’ve trained in other systems only very briefly, I doubt that you are likely to jump into any system and learn \”expert\” level techniques, no matter what system it is … Put another way, any system will likely require that you can defend yourself against a punch or a choke, before you learn to defend yourself against an armed assailant.
You have to start somewhere …
On another note —
In my mind, \”combatives\” is simply an all inclusive term that is used to donote combat; in this case it may be hand to hand, it may be empty hand vs. armed assailant or both may be armed. In a traditional system where you learn kata you might block, kick, block, spinning back hook kick then chop suey for your finish … In Krav, there is no prearranged, predetermined way to attack (once your defense and simultaneous counterattack has been executed). You are choosing targets and delivering appropriate strikes based upon the distance continuum, angles, body position, etc … \”You defend, couterattack simultaneously and then transition to combatives!\” Whatever is most appropriate …
$0.04
😉JFOX wrote: ìIn other styles, like TKD or Karate, your friend would be expected to master these techniques before progressingÖî
Sounds just like KM so far.
Al wrote: ìWhile I understand your frustration with the \”belt system\”, you need to keep in mund that the advanced techniques are based on principles that are taught and learned in the level one classes. Trying to focus on advanced concepts or higher level techniques is truely the same as trying to run before you walk.î
Kravjeff wrote: \”Put another way, any system will likely require that you can defend yourself against a punch or a choke, before you learn to defend yourself against an armed assailant.\”
So my friend won’t be allowed to learn how to defend herself against an armed assailant if she can’t perform the KM techniques shown to her earlier?
I guess KM really is just another martial art. Itís certainly does not appear to be a self-defense system for everyone. Donít KMAA believe that the less abled should be allowed to learn how to defend themselves? As they donít appear to be willing to evolve and adapt to allow less physically abled people learn what you guys call very effective self defense. 🙁
Thats a pretty interesting conclusion you jumped to Curious. Though I’m a bit suspect. I’ll try to help. 🙂 I don’t do krav so I don’t care if you end up doing it or not. No personal Agenda. All self defense schools will work around the students limitations and grade based on their personal ability. The truth though is that fighting is physical and a NFL linebacker with no training will be a handful to all when enraged,Why? He’s strong and quick and bred on contact. The myth of combat get destroyed every week in mma. The idea of combatives is better defined by the idea of using whats practical. Everyone has their own Ideas of what practical is. Thus talking Martial arts is like talking religion or politics. Everybody has their own swear to god unbiased opimions 🙄 Even Me, but mine are right 😉 😆
I’ve looked at krav hard and people sometimes have accused me of bashing 😈 But looking at the sylabus it is a solid fundamentally sound combatives program, It focused on combat conditioning, before it was cool. You and your friend would learn alot about yourselves from itPOLITICAL CORRECTNESS ASIDE – SOMEONE HAS TO SAY IT – MIGHT AS WELL BE ME (BE WARNED) …
Your friend can either defend him/herself as best as possible or he/she can’t … The system doesn’t matter. KM is good; no great, in my opinion for everyone … He/she won’t likely benefit from any system over another, unless it’s something fairly simple like Krav Maga. Remember – One doesn’t have to be an \”expert\” to survive …
I seriously doubt that anyone is going to start a self defense system for people in wheelchairs (or otherwise physically \”declined\”), though, as my father in-law is himself in a wheelchair, I kinda wish they would … You’re a human; in America … Play the card you’re dealt! I have empathy for your friend, but you can’t expect the world to bow to him/her …
You might as well call your local representative to ban mugging people with disabilities !!! (oh, wait … Isn’t that illegal no matter what?)
Grrrrr ….
AAaaarrrgh !!!
I logged out and logged back in just for this – Someone please tell me if I’m over reacting … (I tend to do so sometimes when it comes to some things) …
Curious – Are you actuallly suggesting that martial arts systems of any kind aren’t suitable enough to your friend’s disability??? Are you kidding me???
What has this country come to ???
If that’s the case, I’ll tell you what: By a Glock, learn to shoot and hope that the bad guys follow your rules … In the meantime, Me and my \”handicapped\” (God I hate that word) partners will keep training our asses off to protect ourselves, and those of you who can’t or won’t protect themselves!
Sorry if I’ve offended anyone – Kind of – Well, not really …
Kravjeff,
Thank you for your direct and honest response. I truly appreciate it. I refuse to believe that only the physically fit can defend themselves and I will keep looking for a self defense system that can accommodate my friendís condition. If I find anyone that can teach self-defense for people in a wheelchair, Iíll let you know 😉 . Iíll keep an open mind with Krav for myself.
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quote \”curious\:Kravjeff,Thank you for your direct and honest response. I truly appreciate it. I refuse to believe that only the physically fit can defend themselves and I will keep looking for a self defense system that can accommodate my friendís condition. If I find anyone that can teach self-defense for people in a wheelchair, Iíll let you know 😉 . Iíll keep an open mind with Krav for myself.
Thank you too for the direct and honest response … I really (sincerely) do hope your friend finds something. I believe Krav is the answer but only you/he/she can answer that … Keep me posted on that wheelchair defense 😉
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quote \”kravjeff\:By a Glock, learn to shoot and hope that the bad guys follow your rules …Being in Canada right now, I can’t do that. 😉
Besides, what’s wrong with shopping around for a self defense system? Must I repeat myself again in saying that I am NOT interested in martial arts? Been there. Done that. Not for me. Being that my friend’s leg is heavy (she struggles to climb stairs), kicking isn’t much of an option for her so most martial arts are out for her.
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