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The thing is Jeff their are systems, combatives included that have perpetuated that myth or the myth of the Wing Chun chick or Martial arts of non violence. Fighting is a contact sport. You know that and get your butt handed to you on a regular basis. But that does not lead to mass appeal or student retention. So we clean it up. Curious isn’y outta line with his curiousity. After all people still thinks if you say you take martial arts you are automatically a dangerous Man 😯 We are in a time of confusion for many as MMA breaks down the myths and myths die hard.( Look at the resistence Gabe and Southnarc have gotten over the years) I think there are groups though that work with specific disabilites. I know a Judo guy who teaches the Blind. i loved your line about not having to be an expert to survive….that to me sums up combatives. Combatives doesn’t teach you to fight…there are no rules….Its focus is on teaching you to survive by whatever means necessary.. Thats why so many M/a’s get stomped in a street fight. The guys thier fighting, fight to survive daily.glad your posting
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quote \”curious\:quote \”kravjeff\:By a Glock, learn to shoot and hope that the bad guys follow your rules …Jeff 😀 you go boy!
Besides, what’s wrong with shopping around for a self defense system? Must I repeat myself again in saying that I am NOT interested in martial arts? Been there. Done that. Not for me. Being that my friend’s leg is heavy (she struggles to climb stairs), kicking isn’t much of an option for her so most martial arts are out for her.
I know most systems will accomodate her to the best of her ability and thats all you can ask of anyone. The most important part is that she likes going.Talk to instructors in person. People can do amazing things when they put their mind to it.Good Luck. As to the M/A thing, its more about the instructors focus the the name on the sign
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quote \”unstpabl1\:I know most systems will accomodate her to the best of her ability and thats all you can ask of anyone. The most important part is that she likes going.Talk to instructors in person. People can do amazing things when they put their mind to it.Good Luck. As to the M/A thing, its more about the instructors focus the the name on the signGreat point / advice Mike !! You’ve gotta try it to decide if you like it … Short term contracts (if required) aren’t all that painful in the grand scheme of things …
I just got to throw my 2 cents in on the dissabilities thing. I studied TKD a number of years before I got hooked on Krav. During that period I attended many tornaments and seminars. I have seen many people with dissabilities do some pretty amazing things at tournaments and seminars during exibitions and at belt testing. I’ve seen people with prosthetics compete in sparring events and do quite well. I’ve seen people with vision and hearing impairments and kids and adults with down syndrom do things you wouldn’t think possible for them. I’m talking about things from katas, to breaking boards to self defense stuff.
I have seen a Blackbelt who was struck by a car after getting his Blackbelt and was left spending the rest of his life in a wheel chair. This guy’s instructor’s worked with him and revised a training program for him. He had a special kata developed that he could perform in his wheelchair and it was amazing to watch. He could actually spar to some extent and protect himself quit well against punches and kicks to his head and body area. (Of course there was no full contact with him). During a demonstration I saw him break either two or three boards with a palm heel strike from his wheel chair. I feel sorry for an attacker that would attempt to reach down aggressively at this guy with the ability to palm heel strike with that kind of power.
My point is, if people with dissabilities can be taught this kid of stuff in traditional Martial Arts, then they certainly can be taught to defend themself in a reality based self defense system like Krav. (To a certain extent anyway.)
again, just my 2 cents (maybe 3 cents 😆 )
Curious: It seems you are not getting the answers, and objective review of KM that you are looking for. I will do my best to describe it based on MY experience with it at the particular school I train at. (I meant to post this last week, but it took a while to get my account activated.)
Although KM likes to promote itself as not being a martial art, the fact is that it is taught in a very similar way to traditional martial arts. You wear a uniform. Respect is a big part of it, and this includes bowing at the start and end of class (not as much bowing as other styles I have studied, and I find the bowing rather strange since bowing is a Japanese thing, not an Israeli thing.) The style/system is broken down into levels with belts, and a student must complete one level before learning techniques of the following level. This makes progress rather slow and does not let you tailor the learning to your needs/strengths. KM is purely physical, and all the techniques are physically based. By this I mean you learn that ìwhen someone does this, you do thatî (more on this later).
KM has a lot of good points, and I believe it is better than many other martial arts (and I certainly find it a lot more fun to learn.) It is much more physical, and higher levels of aggression are incorporated into training. This gives you more of a sense of what a violent confrontation is like, and helps develop fitness faster than other styles. The striking techniques taught are simple and effective, and easy to learn. Proper footwork is emphasized. The uniform consists of a t-shirt, and you train in shoes. This makes training more comfortable and realistic than other styles.
If you dislike martial arts, you are not likely to enjoy KM, but I guess it depends what it is about martial arts you donít like. Although KM likes to promote itself as reality based self defense, it is far from complete, and not really geared towards average civilians in day to life situations. That said, there is certainly a lot to gain from it from the point of view of self-defense, but you will want to supplement it with other training and self education on the principles of self-defense. You need to understand both the strong and the weak points of KM to get the most out of your training.
First of all, think about what and who KM was originally designed for: Israeli soldiers. These soldiers all have a high level of fitness to begin with. As soldiers they have been trained to think and act under the stress of combat, and have learned to deal with fear and other associated emotions. Legalities of their actions are not an issue. Their frame of mind will be set in combat mode prior to an engagement. I mean they are ready for it before anything happens. They are not caught off guard walking the dog, or loading groceries in the trunk of the car. As well as being fit, their physical condition will be known, and perfect. I mean they wonít be on crutches, or have a nasty cold, or arm in a cast, or whatever. Their goal is not simply survival. They are trying to destroy an enemy and will use more force, and put themselves at higher risk than is required to survive most urban confrontations. They know how they will be dressed for a confrontation (in comfortable fighting clothes). No mini skirts, high heels, business suits; they wonít be walking with their children, or baby strapped to their chest etcÖ For all these reasons, KM tends not to address all these variables that the typical civilian will have to deal with at the time of an attack.
(continued in the next post)
(I couldn’t fit it all in one post, so here is more)
KM is purely physical. It teaches physical solutions to physical problems (attacks). Basic concepts of street survival and strategies for self-defense are not taught or incorporated in training; or at least not on a regular basis. Almost all attacks in the street are behaviorally based and begin with verbal aggression and body language. Avoiding a fight is one thing, but being able to effectively defuse a situation is most certainly not common sense and needs to be incorporated into training if you expect to be able to do in the heat of the moment. Remember when the adrenaline starts to flow, your mind shuts down and the training takes over. It isnít easy to strategize WHILE under attack. For example:
– reading a potential attackers body language to know when and if he is going to strike
– knowing when you should strike preemptively
– how to stand relative to an attacker or multiple attackers, and how to position yourself during the early (verbal) stages of an attack to maximize your defense when the physical portion begins
– thought-process interruption techniques to help you gain the tactical edge
– what body language, tone of voice and words you should use to defuse a situation, or at the very least cause your attacker to drop his guard making it easier for you to physically defend yourselfThese types of strategies are an absolutely mandatory part of self-defense and should be incorporated into EVERY scenario to maximize your training. Emotions and psychology are as much or even more a part of self-defense than purely physical ìmovesî. KM being physically rooted does not address what techniques to use in what situations. The defensive technique used should depend not only on the physical attack, but on all the other variables discussed above.
Something else that should be covered are the legalities of using force for self-defense. This varies with region. In my region (Canada) a lot of the defenses we are taught are illegal to employ for the attacks they are suppose to defend against. Know the laws in your area so that you can decide for yourself what techniques can be used in what situations. A good self-defense school should teach you not only the basic laws, but how to deal with witnesses, police and prosecutors to minimize legal consequences to yourself. The body language you use during the early (verbal) stages of a confrontation is also important for witnesses. You want to make sure it is obvious to bystanders that you are a victim, and not simply accepting a challenge to fight.
Although the simple striking techniques taught in KM are excellent, some of the more advanced ìself-defenseî techniques involve complex motor skills like coordination and precision. These are hard to execute while under adrenaline, and generally require a high level of strength and speed to be effective. Physically, you will want to supplement your KM training with something that teaches simpler, gross motor skill movements, which do not depend on strength or speed, like grabbing, pulling, eye and throat jabbing/gouging, head cranking, biting, spitting etc.
(more in the next post)
(I’m almost done!)
Overall I think KM is worthwhile, and has many key advantages over other martial arts. Nonetheless, it does have its shortcomings with respect to civilian self-defense. That said, finding a place that purely focuses on what you want is not easy to find, and those that do, typically teach dangerous techniques that elevate the level of violence. You will have to do your homework and understand the following basics:
why fights start
where fights start
what confrontations are most common
who is most likely to be attacked
how will you most likely be attacked
the legal implications of defending yourself
how to talk to the police and make the initial reportWith that knowledge you will be able to get the most out of your training, and evaluate everything you learn. Keep the good stuff, forget the bad stuff. What you learn will depend on what you put into it, and the quality of the instructors. Look for a place where the instructors are familiar with the basic facts and stats around street attacks, and not simply lots of martial arts experience.
Strictly Street, thank you for your very thorough and informative post! 😀 Youíve given me a lot to think about when looking for a self-defense school.
Strictly Street wrote: ìThe style/system is broken down into levels with belts, and a student must complete one level before learning techniques of the following level. This makes progress rather slow and does not let you tailor the learning to your needs/strengths.î
This was my concern. I donít see why everyone needs to learn to do things the same way as people are built differently and what works for one person might not necessarily work well for another. It also concerned me that this would hinder someoneís chances of learning how to deal with an armed attacker as this is obviously only taught at higher levels.
Many people have successfully defended themselves without training therefore I donít see the need for someone to perfect a specific technique in order to be allowed to learn how to deal with a different type of attack. Although many people have failed to defend themselves as well and I donít want to wait to be attacked before knowing if I can defend myself. I also donít want to waste my time perfecting things that donít come naturally to me in the first place.
Ideally, a school would place you into scenarios and see how you perform naturally, and then fine tune what you already can do. I sorta hoped KM would be this way as they say it is ìbased on simple principles and instinctive movementî, but I became confused with the belt system and the different levels. Thank you for clearing this up for me, and I will keep in mind all your other points while on my search for personal protection. 🙂
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[quote=\”curious\”]levels.Many people have successfully defended themselves without training therefore I donít see the need for someone to perfect a specific technique in order to be allowed to learn how to deal with a different type of attack. Although many people have failed to defend themselves as well and I donít want to wait to be attacked before knowing if I can defend myself. I also donít want to waste my time perfecting things that donít come naturally to me in the first place.
How will you know if you ever can defend yourself? Most people learning to throw a right cross find out it doesn’t come naturally. Most new things aren’t natural, their uncomfortable till you get enough reps in to train your subconcious. There is no magic bullet, its work, repetition after boring repetition,everything builds from basic. You seem to have this all figured out, but after all these posts, I don’t have a clue where your coming from. Don’t get caught up in labels. If you don’t perfect technique A, you may not have the foundation for technique C. But you can’t know that just starting out,cause you don’t have a clue how the system progresses. You either trust your instructor or you don’t. In the end a punch may be a punch, but not at the beginning. But the bottom line on this is, you just gotta get in there and get punched in the grill against alive, resisting opponents. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here by responding 8) but all I’m getting is I don’t wanna waste my time training because other people have succeeded without it and its easier to debate on the net the differences between Self Defence Systems and Martial Arts, than it is to pick up your local phonebook, go and watch classes, try classes and actually sweat and get hit, till you figure out the perfect system, which with not to waste your time on.
Now you may think I’m being mean or attacking you,but the truth is I’m being very,very kind. I’ve given you the directions for finding out what and where to train. This is the exact path everyone ends up using in one way or another. The trick is to have enough discipline to stick to it till your body can make it work.Thats life
I agree with unstpabl, it’s important to learn the basics. Many people starting a martial art may have no prior experience. They’ll need to learn how to throw a decent punch first, before they can get into more intricate techniques. Also, many later techniques in KM are based on earlier learned moves. For example the block and counter for a hook punch is similar to the block and counter used against a knife attack.
Strictly Street,
Some good points, but I would disagree with the statement that KM is \”not geared toward average civilians in day to life situations\”. Even though KM started out as a military system, it has been adapted specifically for civilian purposes and the techniques we learn are all geared toward civilian self-defense.
I also wouldn’t agree that the techniques are \”hard to execute\”. They are simple moves, based on a person’s natural reaction and can be performed by anybody, even by a smaller person against a larger attacker. They do not require strength. Also, things such as grabbing, biting, eye and throat gouging etc are very much encouraged in KM.
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Giantkiller
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