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Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
I agree with you. A sport BJJ school is not going to work for self-defense. You will need to train at an MMA/self-defense based grappling school (BJJ, Sambo, Catch-wrestling, etc.). Berimbolo is definitely not a street safe tactic. A new student isn’t going to pull it off anyway (12-24 months maybe). It will take some time to get proficient on the ground. A good teacher should be keeping it simple for the first 6-12 month anyway (no Berimbolos).
A good school will start you slow. It will take 6 mo. Before you start getting your hip movement down. The stand-up/takedowns & takedown defense and “jits with hits” (punching) will come. Time well spent. It is likely someone bigger and stronger then you will attack you on the street.
In 17 years of law enforcement, I have seen a big shift in how people fight on the street. Everyone is an MMA fan or wrestled in high school, etc. I would never underestimate just how little it takes to get taken to the ground or how little training is needed. Especially if your attacker is bigger then you. Everyone knows the “ground and pound” & I’ve seen unskilled people pull it off with little training.
My point is it takes more time to get good at grappling then striking. This is why I fell in love with Krav Maga. If all you have time to train is one thing, Krav is the way to go. I think it is the best defensive tactics system around. A dedicated person can learn to defend himself or herself quickly (quicker the most martial arts anyway).
If you have time and choose to add grappling (BJJ, judo, sambo, wrestling, etc.) just spent the time to learn it right. I have seen people teaching “defense” against common grappling holds/takedowns that look like they themselves have never grappled (just watch YouTube) or have little time on the mat. Someone who is a good wrestler/grappler is going to feel much stronger and not as easy to escape from.
As for MMA over Kudo, both seem practical if used as a supplement. Kudo seemed like it would be fun.
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
“In 17 years of law enforcement, I have seen a big shift in how people fight on the street. Everyone is an MMA fan or wrestled in high school, etc. I would never underestimate just how little it takes to get taken to the ground or how little training is needed. Especially if your attacker is bigger then you. Everyone knows the “ground and pound” & I’ve seen unskilled people pull it off with little training”
I am always curious how cultural differences can change the likely hood of certain attacks in the street. For instance wrestling is NOWHERE near as popular in the UK as the US. I wonder how this changes the types of attacks you are likely to encounter?
Also knives are not allowed to be carried in UK & gun crime I imagine is nowhere near as likely as in the US. So maybe certain elements should be pushed more in your Krav syllabus depending which country you live in. For example I once read a stat that said head butts aren’t anywhere near as common in assaults in the US as in Europe.
I once did a break down of all the real world situations I had been in, the best & closest I have ever had it described was the attack likelihoods/patterns from “Dead or Alive” by Geoff Thompson , but again it may be just a lot more applicable to Britain.
The more I research I do into original Gracie BJJ the more interested I am in it. I would be very interested in learning “The 36 Most Important Self-defense Techniques of All Time” that used to be taught as standard in original schools.
I talked to a guy in Judo a few weeks ago who flat out refused to go back to a BJJ school that taught “self defence rubbish” even though it competed & did well in sport BJJ.
Anyway this is getting a bit off tangent.
If I start up with Kudo I will let people know some more details.
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
Well,
I’m a “rural” cop. My back-up is likely 1-2 hours from me most of the time. My daily experience /tactics may be different then an urban cop. I’ve worked urban LE and corrections. All LE have different challenges but much is also the same.
I think people may be more empowered to attack me sometimes. As I’m always alone & maybe they think they can get away with it easier. I run into a LOT of drug users alcohol issues and that will empower someone’s willingness to attack a cop.
I would say most of the people I contact (daily) carry a gun, knife, both all the time. Or a rifle/shotgun is in their vehicle/ in reach. We Americans do love our guns. ☺ Now I think every legal/law abiding citizen has the right to own/carry a gun without a lot of fuss but that’s a different subject.
You are right. Both MMA & Wrestling are popular in the United States. Good takedown defense is a must. Look at UFC star (retired) Chuck Lidell, that guy was great at stuffing/stopping the takedown. This is also why grappling /ground defense is so important to me. So many people I contact may have some skill.
As for head-butts, my experience has been different. I have had head-butts /elbows come at me more then a few times on the job. Mostly when putting on the handcuffs. A U.S. citizen may have a different experience then an LEO. Good arrest tactics must be trained.
Knife defense in important to all LE /people but is likely much more of an issue for cops/people in your neck of the woods. As guns are likely much harder for criminals to get. Knives are easily concealed, quick, deadly, never “jam” and easy to get /make for everyone. If I were a cop in the UK (assuming unarmed), I would be training the HELL out of Krav Maga. I feel for my bother’s/sister’s in blue that cant carry a guns on/off the job.
FYI… if you are looking to add a practical grappling program to your Krav Maga but don’t care to go train at a BJJ / MMA school. First let me say that I think a good Krav Maga school should cover most of your self-defense needs. The coaches (KMWW) in my area are impressive and have exceptional grappling skills.
You may not have school in your area. If you have a friend to train with a few times a week, you can still get some good training in. I would highly recommend the Gracie Combatives program. Yes I know, a DVD program (Gracie University) may not give you the skills a good coach will give you.
I have been training No-Gi BJJ/MMA at a local school/schools in my area for a few years now. I still highly recommend training at a good BJJ/MMA school. As a defensive tactics instructor, I Incorporate BJJ into our program.
I have attended the Gracie Survival Tactics (GST) course. The GST program is basically a modified Gracie Combative (light) program for cops. I also own the combative DVD’s & regularly use them with friends.
Let me tell you from experience, Gracie Combative/GST works! I think that it would mix GREAT with Krav Maga. Basically, Krav will deal with most of your self-defense needs. If you are looking to add a self-defense based BJJ program, Gracie Combatives may be for you. It consists of 36 lessons (multiple “slices” per lesson).
The program was designed for the smaller, non-athletic regular Joes (like me). It will teach takedown defense, basic street takedowns, positional control (top & bottom), ground & pound defense, and how to get back up to escape. A GREAT mix with Krav Maga.
Stay Safe….
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
Right so a little more information.
Went to the Kudo club. It isn’t purely a Kudo club as the sport is still trying to take off, it is also a karate club that is competing in Kudo.
This kind of got me a little worried at first (biased I know). But if this is where I needed to go to try Kudo no worries.
Anyway I was pleasantly surprised. The karate is used as a base for Kudo but the katas etc of karate are only required to be learnt if you are interested in the karate side.
They have lessons that are specifically Kudo orientated, it just reminds me of MMA to be honest with a slightly different ruleset. All in all a pretty solid class & it is really enjoyable to be able to spar again. But I don’t necessarily see the self defence element of Kudo being pushed (Which was advertised on the Kudo website), very much see the sport element.
No problem with the karate club as they were quite upfront about the Kudo element being their sporting outlet. I have seen more self defence in the karate classes to be honest with pre emptive striking being discussed.
The head guard I pictured works pretty well TBH.
Is it a better sporting outlet than traditional mma for a kravist only time will tell. In theory I would say yes but I have already noticed rules popping in that makes me think no.
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
Hey CB, my bad for misreading what you wrote.
The Krav that I’ve been taught and instruct is primarily for an sudden attack/defense type of encounter rather than a mutually agreed upon sparring match. There are things that are in our KM curriculum that I would not use or teach for MMA or sparring purposes. IMO, if you’re sparring or competing, it isn’t Krav anymore per se, its competitive MMA.
I’ve seen some extremely well rounded instructors in KM and I’ve also seen some instructors who only have a Krav background and/or limited fighting/sparring experience – and if you have some experience in other MA/MMA or fighting/sparring, you can often tell the difference.
So, like with just about everything else, YMMV when it comes to the quality and effectiveness of a “fight class” or a “sporting outlet”, whether it’s through KM or any other school. That being said, IMO, all else being equal, the more Live training (e.g. sparring, rolling/grappling, randori, etc) a school/class does, the better it will be for that purpose…
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
Yes as i have read previously mentioned I noticed Krav sparring turns more into kickboxing then Krav, but how to spar krav techniques?
If sparring maybe trying to move to the deadside secure a arm & repetitively strike to the jaw but if you had 2 people doing that it would become very scrappy really quickly I imagine.
The trouble with sparring I think is in order to do it safely you have to adopt rulesets from more sporting arts like kickboxing so under those rules the better kickboxer (who would be using techniques proving to work under these rulsets) would win but in order to train specific krav techniques/positions you would have to swallow your pride & use techniques that under these rulesets wouldn’t be optimal. For example you would be practising straight stab techniques/ striking against someone thinking kickboxing (unless you both are on the same page)
Probably live drills with full protective gear one stabbing one defending & fully committing to the attack & counter-attack would be best.
Its hard, in order to optimally perform in that sport you need the techniques that are optimal for it but they may not mesh with your self defence goals.
For instance practising submission grappling with more of a BJJ sport environment has made me too comfortable on my back which I was reminded of in Kudo when someone slammed me into the ground on a triangle attempt.
Also in Judo it caused me to lose alot of the ground sparring matches due to pins which I am not used to training for, half the time I didn’t even attempt to desperately fight out of them because I didn’t feel too threatened by them. It was only afterwards when someone explained the rules that I realised what I was doing wrong. But the Judo way to get out of the pin seems to be to roll flat on your front , is that good for say BJJ or MMA?
Also to me it kinda disapproves the argument of, “yeah but in a different environment I wouldn’t use that technique because…..” if I am spending a significant amount of time training a technique as a reaction against a certain attack I would be doing it when adrenaline is flooding my system in real life.
So far I am unsure whether I prefer Judo or Wrestling for my sportive grappling art with the best SD carry over. The submissions are a + but how the ground element is trained may be a -.
I feel it is way too early to write Judo off though.
Re: Is Kudo the answer to a sporting outlet for Krav Maga?
No, it is not. Too much full contact sparring will make you stoo-pid. (quote from my SA Boer dutch bud who I used to spar regularly)
Avoid frequent full contact sparring so that you can have the wherewithal to continue to Krav on into your 70’s because that is when you WILL be a target by our societal predator’s.
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