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During this past week there was some counter-terrorism training that was sponsored by JINSA, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, here in Columbus, Ohio. It was only open to LE, military, or fire personnel.
One of my Sgts. went and he stated that it was a very informative seminar and he was impressed with the material presented. I think this speaks volumes for the instructors since my Sgt is also a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard Reserve who’s had quite a bit of advanced training. He took 10 pages of notes over the 2 day period.
I looked through his notes and the seminar outline and the instructors were all Mossad, Shin Bet and/or Israeli National Police. The seminar content focussed on recognizing and responding to suicide bombers, intelligence gathering on terrorist cells and investigation techniques specifically designed for terrorism. I am glad to see the public safety leadership here in the US are finally making it point to learn the lessons that the Israelis had to learn through the blood of their people.
terrorists
I once asked a FBI buddy of mine….\” Since there are terrorist cells that are trained and training. Why doesn’t the US start some anti-terrorist cells of their own. He said that was a real viable question with no short answer. I’m interested to see what others think. I understand a seminar discussing these issues with LEO’s but isn’t it time we started training those that can and would like to ebb the tide of terrorism……ok,ok hopping off soapbox now.
*Devil’s Advocate*
How would you fight them as a cell? If your already using there structure would you also use there methods? If so then what would be the difference between the 2? Other than location I really don’t see one myself right now.If you simply want to fight, there are \”corporate armies\” out there that give you basic military training if you have none ( usually prior military are the ones that join ) and will send you over to the hot spots at the time. If interested in this do your own research and form your own opinion, I already have mine.
The other ways to directly fight are gov’t service, whether federal or military.
The idea is a good one as far as reprisal, but we are better than them and do not need to resort to killing / destroying whole cities to serve our cause. Just my thoughts
I guess it depends on how much you want to/can get directly involved…there’s many ways to fight terrorism aside from being \”the guy on the ground\” so to speak (full respect to them of course).
In my case I see it as a series of \”levels\”….the basic being simply keeping aware and reporting suspicious activity/crime (which I currently do). The next step up which I took a few years ago was to become more proficient at defending myself should the need arise….this was a combination of taking up Krav Maga and shooting.
After that I guess it would be joining the military or a similar agency in a support role…such as intelligence analysis (this is something I’m seriously considering doing a few years from now when I become a Citizen). Beyond that it would be joining \”active\” Counter-terrorist agencies/cells etc, which is something I’m still considering in the long term, but will depend on family situation, finances etc. (I know I will earn a lot more in the private sector as a qualified engineer, but it’s weighing up how to support myself&family with doing a job that I feel is making a difference).
Anyhow, just my $0.02 😉
I am not familiar with any plans of our military/police using counter-rerrorisn cells (ctc for short) but ctc’s are not a new concept. Didn’t the Israeli’s create one to seek justice for their civilians/athletes killed at the Munich games?
As far stooping to the level of the terrorists, I believe that to prevent future attacks and/or punish the attackers/leadership we must sometimes use their methods. This does include torture, with oversight.
Torture with oversight may sound like a contadiction but if torture is allowed using certain methods set forth by civilian/military leadership to prevent a CBNR attack then I feel it is justified. The people that commit to attacking us in this way do not deserve the Bill of Rights or the Geneva Convention.
As far as how an individual can participate in making our country and our individual families safe, there have been many good ideas presented. The one idea that I like the best is making sure the personal defense skills of your family and yourselves are continually upgraded are of the utmost importance.
Also, beside the opportunities mentioned pertaining to the military, law enforcement and civilian contractors, there are also opportunities such as a volunteer firefighter/EMT, Civil Air Patrol, Red Cross volunteer, etc. The possibilities are almost endless but so is the need in these different areas to not only prevent future attacks but also to help with rescue, recovery and rebuilding when another attack occurrs.
Noticed I wrote \”when\” the next attack occurrs. I believe another attackattempt is inevitable unless we soundly thrash the terrorists in their own backyard. I believe that we have not incurred another terrorist attack here due tot he fact we are keeping them busy in Iraq, Afganistan, the Phillipines, Yemen, Jbouti and other such places. Their leadership is on the run and our govt. and the other allied govts. have also hit them where it hurts the most when it comes to the ability of international terroism, the ability to finance on the international level. Should the terrorists continue to shape the will of the American people and have them turn on our leadership, then they will end up getting a few moments to plan and act without interference and we WILL have 09/11, part 2, 3, 4, 5 etc.
DUG
Ever been tortured? Ever had your family members tortured?
Hmmmmmm, Torture, at the Gov’t level. WOW, sounds like a great idea…. I am sure Hitler and Tojo would agree with you…. I am sure the Gov’t of N Vietnam would as well. Oh, wait, there is only one Vietnam now, so they MUST have been right. The ends ALWAYS justify the means, what the heck…..
Torture does NOT work for a number of reasons I will not go into here, but hey, why not beat anyone into a confession. When a man that has been tortured introduces a bill that says we shouldn’t do that, he has reasons.
(Oh, BTW, the founding fathers had a REASONS for all their amendments.)
The ends always justify the means leads to a totalitarian regime period
No, I have not been tortured and have not had anybody in my family tortured but I think that the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11 would have a different opinion of it than you do.
Non American citizens should have no consideration of the Bill of Rights and if we have to use some forms of torture, such as using chemical truth syrums, to keep another attack similiar to 9/11 or a CBNR attack from happening, I am all for it. Do you think Israel would hesitate doing what they need to protect their loved ones?
You bring up 3 regimes that operated without oversight and/or checks and balances. That’s why I say there are limits that can be set forth by civilian and military leadership. What I forgot to say in the previous post is that this should apply to non-US citizens only and only in certain incidents could prevent this kind of attack. It does not and cannot mean wholesale sellout to the torture dungeons of old or as was used by the regimes you mentioned.
It’s funny you mentioned those other regimes but other than Nazi Germany, the other ones never had to pay for their attrocities against the world, particularly against Americans. I am tired of Americans being targeted worldwide in no matter what we’re involved in because we are the only prosperous superpower left. This is an excuse I’ve heard on many occasions when others try justify their animosity towards us.
In the mid-1990’s Osama Bin Laden and Al Qeda declared open war on our country and it’s citizens and perpetrated numerous attacks against us with culmination being 9/11. If we are not willing to do what needs to be done against our enemies next time it may be your family or mine caught in the middle.
Thankyou very much for your reply. I do hope this spawns other discussion and thoughts to eventually make our country and our families safer. If my memory of history serves me correctly our civilian and military leadership had this same type of discussions regarding the use of nuclear bombs in WWII. Fortunately we only had to use nukes to end WWII and have not had to since. I hope that should we ever have to use torture to protect our country , the fact that we are willing to use it has kept others in check.
I will finish by saying that I don’t think that torture is a first resort or that it should be common place. It is not a method that I prefer for getting information but it may be necessary. That is why there should be civilian as well as military leadership involved becasue I believe that it will help to keep it from being used inappropriately or in cases that are not the most extreme of circumstances.
I think first there needs to be a concise definition of what torture is. Some will contend that sensory isolation and sleep deprivation are torture. Israelis routinely use stress positions in interrogations. Is that torture? Amnesty International says it is. Is slapping (as opposed to punching and kicking) torture?
Is prolonged intensive interrogation *without physical force* torture? There were cases here in the US were confessions were drawn from innocent suspects (DNA evidence cleared them) after all-day interrogations.
It ain’t all that cut & dry. Personally, I can’t say that exporting our democracy alone is gonna win this ‘war on terror’ all on it’s own merit. Those are some bad boys we’re faced against, and they have a wholly different set of ideas regarding human value and fair fighting practices. They could care less whether we’re for torture or against it, and they’ll try to kill you and your mother whether your hand is clasped around an electric prodder or a flower.
Not that I’m advocating it, but there’s something to be said for the Saddam/Stalin school of thought. I mean, there was no terrorism in Iraq under Saddam because anyone contemplating such attacks knew their families, friends, and neighbors would be tortured and killed as recourse. Collective punishment served as a pretty good deterrent.
\”You talk about paying for atrocities … what about when we dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese citizens? War, huh … what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.\”
Um, they attacked us, and who do you think was mostly responsible for rebuilding Japan?
You know what, forget I said anything. Much of your post is just ridiculous propaganda that doesn’t belong here, so I should have simply ignored it. There are plenty of websites for you to discuss your politics ad nauseum–this isn’t one of them.
Situation 1.Your family has been taken by whomever. They have given you 24 hours to comply or they will kill your whole family. You have been able to capture one of the terrorist, he knows where your family is, what do you do?
Lets see
:\”Torture is unacceptable … in any circumstance. It is inhuman and regardless of your religion, race, culture, or nationality we are human and we should all have a built in mechanism that tells you it’s wrong.\”
I think your mind would change if it were to be closer to home. Every day, fathers, mothers, son and daughters are fighting and dying for you to be able to have your \”torture is unacceptable…in any circumstance\” attitude.
Situation 2. Your country is under attack, whether it it on your soil or on forgien soil. Your countries interest are under attack. All your country has to do is pull out of any land that they deem theirs, stop influencing them through tv, success, and all other things that they deem inappropriate. They have written and sworn to a goal of killing 2 million members of your country. 1 million being women and children the other milloin being men. Can we belive them, I don’t know they ran 3 plans into our buildings killing 3,00 people. Their goals are clear.
\”Our families are far more likely to be killed in a car wreck or house fire than ever meet a terrorist on a bad day. Yet we are spending billions of dollars fight the war on terror while we cut billions of dollars on internal social programs. Just seems wrong to me. Hell more people die every day from toxic pollution than terrorist attack …. why are we so terrified? Is it because this administration is using the Wag the Dog premise and distraction the public with the threat of terror while they and their \”base\” get richer with tax cuts that only help the top 4% of Americans? It’s outrageous and I’m saddened that it’s working Sad\”
Do you have fire alarms in your house, please, tell me what the chances are of your house burning down, why the fire alarms? Your top 4% is completely wrong, in fact, they got the smallest % of tax cuts, they just have more money so it looks like they get a bigger return. Those nasty tax cuts have helped small businesses, which in reality account for over 80% of employment.
I’m sure any owner of a gym here would tell you that the tax cuts have helped them, which has enable you to join that gym, which has helped you improve your chances of surviving an attack from some one that according to your %’s most likely won’t happen, why waste your time? So Before I go off and just destroy your reality I’m going to agree to disagree.
Back to my point, we can have this conversation because of the people that fight for our country on a daily basis. In my opinion if they have captured some one that can help them save one of their buddies from dying, do what it takes. If making them uncomfortable, if feeding them 3 meals a day, if providing them Koran’s, and allowing them to pray 5 times a day, is tourture, so be it. If they get cold, or don’t get enough sleep, or some underwear is put on there heads, take the guard to court, destroy his military carrer, and plant it on every cover of every news paper along with a quote by some politician that calls fellow americans that are dying for you and me Nazi’s.
I would like to take this moment to thank all the policemen, firemen, soliders and any one else that put their lives on the line. I promise you this, if I have a chance to save your life by tourturing some one, I will. As much as it pains you Jay C. I would do it for you even though you don’t want it.
jayc……it’s obvious from your statements you made what side of the political spectrum you come from. All of the do-gooder stuff is nice and in isolated incidents it will work. But for the people who have evil entrenched in their hearts we will never do anything right, period! It does not matter who is president or what political party is in power. The Clinton Admin. bent over backwards to appease these people who have nothing but pure hatred in their heats for us. What we got in turn was the bombing of our embassies in Africa, Khobar towers bombing, The USS Cole attack, etc. The hate these people have is primarily because of the freedoms that US citizens have and due to their culture restrictions that they hate us. It’s not a fault of ours that we have been prosperous and we need to make no apologies for it yet this is exactly why we are hated. But let their be some kind of disaster, earthquake, tsunami or an invasion by an evil dictator and they all look our way for help and we have responded with generosity.
The \”wag the Dog\” theory doesn’t wash. It’s a copout for people to have a reason to hate Bush, be anti-war, etc. without looking at the cold, hard facts. The facts are that as far back as the mid-1990’s it was known on the world scale that Sadaam continued working on a WMD program and was sponsoring terrorism. He had no less than 10 UN resolutions against for such activicties along with his continued human rights violations. In 1997 or 1998, I can’t remember which, the Senate Armed Services committee of which Kennedy, Levin and Kerry were a part of urged then president Clinton to use pre-emptive strikes against Sadaam due to his continuous WMD program. A copy of this letter can be found in several places on the net and it was brought up during the last Pres. election and was never refuted by the DNC.
You bring up the hurricane victims and the tradgedy they have suffered. They haven’t been forgotten about and they continue to be helped. But saying that President Bush cares less about them than anything else shows your complete bias and hatred towards him rather than looking at the situation as a whole. You blaming him is like others blaming President Clinton when almost 800 people, mostly poor and elderly, died during the Chicago heat wave in 1995. As powerfull as the US govt. is, are still limited on a what they can do on an individual basis. They can throw money at a problem but the layers of bureacracy that have been in place for years and it takes time for that money to filter down. If you are waiting for the federal arm of our govt. to be able to respond to all of the needs of everyone in a crisis then you are not living in reality.
In every war but two that we have won, the exceptions being the American Revolution and the War of 1812, we have won them by going into where our enemies live and breath and crushing their will to fight. We were winning the Vietnam war through 1970 until we were told we couldn’t bomb the north using B-52’s and the large battleships. I remember reading in a school history book that the politicians put a stop to it becasue it was demoralizing the enemy. What a joke! We backed off and look what happened. I do not believe in these cases that violence begat more violence. Violence was a means to an end.
Now, I did not intend for this political discussion and would like to see the politics stop. This thread was started to discuss terrorism training and how we could use lessons learned from others to better protect our country and our citizens. I make no apologies for having the safety of our country, our citizens and my family as a top priority.
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