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quote \”Ryan\:You know what, forget I said anything. Much of your post is just ridiculous propaganda that doesn’t belong here, so I should have simply ignored it. There are plenty of websites for you to discuss your politics ad nauseum–this isn’t one of them.***
While I concede that this may not be the forum for everything I posted, I am a bit disapointed that you refer to the truth as propaganda. There have been no links to Iraq and the organization that hijacked and flew those planes into the WTC. However, I respectfully withdraw my statements as I have a lot of respect for you and what you have posted in the past. At your request I will delete my post. 🙁
Jay
quote :In every war but two that we have won, the exceptions being the American Revolution and the War of 1812, we have won them by going into where our enemies live and breath and crushing their will to fight.Well, that’s not exactly what’s happening in Iraq, now is it. There was actually no al qaida there until we invaded, toppled the regime that was their enemy, and created fertile breeding ground for frenzied-monkey indoctrination.
Awe man, you shouldn’t have deleted all that, Jay. 😕
I didn’t agree with much of it, but still, it was a worthy enough opinion.
Propaganda, truth, it’s all relative I suppose. I just don’t think this is the place for it–on either side. That said, I wasn’t looking for a deletion, just a re-direction.
I do appreciate the respectful comments, and I’m not trying to be a forum lord, but…
I think parts of the thread are salvageable.
Let’s look at self defense vs. self protection. One is reactive, one is proactive. If one advocates self protection for individuals, does it not stand to reason that the same tactics might be employed for a nation? Thoughts?
I invoke Godwin’s law. For those who are unfamiliar, click here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
\”You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when a participent drags out Hitler and the Nazis.\”
lol!!! Well, that sux…the thread got old in it’s first page. 😆
jayc…Even though I respectfully disagreed with posting you didn’t have to delete it. I respect your right to disagree with me and I enjoy seeing what other people write. However I was going to ask that if you wanted to have a political discussion that we could find another forum to do it on.
I see a wide variety of opinions and thought processes on many of the posts submitted here. If one is open to learning new things and challenging themselves in their thought and training process then we all become better at all that we are trying to achieve.
To Ryan’s last post…I believe that being proactive is the only way to limit our casualties and to keep ourselves strong and diligent. We can do this by learning the things that the Israelis and others have learned the hard way. We must start implementing these lessons and stop the terrorists before they strike. We have soldiers with \”boots-on-the-ground\” in many nations to root out the terrorists in their strongholds. We cannot ever let them get to their pre-9/11 strength again.
JayC,
I wished you hadn’t deleted your post. I didn’t get a chance to read it. I really don’t think you are showing disrespect by simply disagreeing with another person.
Having said this, I’m really shocked to hear how many people on this board are advocating torture. What is happening to us? We used to fight for human rights throughout the world, now it’s okay to \”waterboard\” terrorism suspects or tie their hands behind their back and hang them from a ceiling and maybe beat them to a bloody pulp while they are up there?
Oh, well, they might \”know something\” that could somehow help us learn something about another impending terrorist attack. Well, what if they don’t? We have the power to arrest them, not present evidence, not have trials, so how do we even know that they are guilty or have any kind of information to provide us with? How many innocent people are we willing to torture, just to get a little bit of information out of the one guilty one?
Also, this whole idea of someone being able to provide information, so it’s okay to torture him isn’t exactly new. It’s the whole reason there is a Geneva Convention. Whoever captures an enemy will have exactly that same thought: Maybe he has information about an impending attack and if I torture him I might save myself and my buddies. Well, our enemies could say the same thing about our captured soldiers and would we agree with it then?
Also, even though the 9/11 attacks were bad, as a country, we are actually pretty lucky. We have never had to fight a modern day war on our soil, our cities have never been bombed, so compared to what some other countries are going through (civil wars, rebels, wars with other countries), or have gone through, the 9/11 attacks were actually not as bad in comparison. Yet, we keep telling people in other countries not to use torture under any circumstances, even if their entire country is threatened by war and people are dying everyday in those conflicts, but then it’s okay for us to use it ourselves. It doesn’t really make sense and sets a very bad example.
I agree we shouldn’t use \”torture\”. But torture to me is beating the crap out of people to get an answer. Not making them stand all night and not letting them sleep. I recently read an article that a female interrogator was being brought up on charges for wearing skimpy outfits and \”flirting\” with the prisoners she was interrogating. Aparently, because of their religion, they are offended because this female interrogator used these tactics. Next thing you know, we will be putting em up at the hilton and begging for scraps in intelligence from them.
Torture: Yes it should be stopped. We shouldnt beat them, shoot them, break bones, or cause any bodily harm.
Offensive actions in order to make a person being questioned uncomfortable and thus easier to interrogate. YES PLEASE! Personally I dont see why America is so shocked at the whole Lyndsy England thing. Its not like she took pictures of americans beheading these guys. Oh wait..thats what we are fighting.
My only real question is, when it comes to the lives of americans, and my brothers in the military. When is the government going to stop tying our hands?
To those of you who say we shouldnt be in Iraq. Regardless of political opinions or line in the road. Why should we, the most powerful country in the world, allow little Hitleresc SOBs stay in power when we have the capability to remove them? Personally, IMO, it is our responsiblity to extend the oppurtunities that we have to every nation in the world. Iraqis have that now. The true mistakes we made with Iraq were letting Paul Bremer disband the military and the police forces after the regime fell.
My final point before I get off my soap box. Was AQ in Iraq before we got there. I can tell you for sure 100% they were. Were they getting aid from Saddam, maybe/maybe not, and maybe they hadnt gone that route yet. But I know from my job in the military that they were there prior to the US invasion/air strikes. You can take that on my word or not.
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***[quote=\”Giantkiller\”]JayC,
I wished you hadn’t deleted your post. I didn’t get a chance to read it. I really don’t think you are showing disrespect by simply disagreeing with another person.***
I removed it because I agreed with others that this was not forum for it. I can email it to you if you are interested.
Jay
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quote \”KravRon\:Was AQ in Iraq before we got there. I can tell you for sure 100% they were. Were they getting aid from Saddam, maybe/maybe not, and maybe they hadnt gone that route yet. But I know from my job in the military that they were there prior to the US invasion/air strikes. You can take that on my word or not.Beyond loose allegations, there’s zero evidence that al quada was active there and/or cooperative with Saddam Hussain.
\”Why should we, the most powerful country in the world, allow little Hitleresc SOBs stay in power when we have the capability to remove them?\”
I’ve got no problem with removing them provided it serves US interests. If carpet-bombing Iran and North Korea would make my morning coffee taste more robust while making the world a happier place, I say let ’em rip. 😈
Evidence that you know of, you dont know what I do in the military. As I said you can either take my word or not. As I said, I can assure you they were. Can I provide evidence? No. Take it or leave it as such that is all I am allowed to say.
I trust my commander in chief and I support him fully.
Keep in mind folks. The media only tells the side of the story thats most interesting. It doesnt necessarily mean its the truth.
A few FACTS I would like to point out.
Iraq Fact: over 2000 deaths in Iraq in 2+ years 🙄
LA Fact: In 2000, there were 1165 firearm related deaths in Los Angeles County of which 815 (70%) were homicides 👿
So 2,000 deaths in an entire country in two years OF HARD COMBAT…or 1,100 deaths in a year in just one US city that are crime related. Why is the deathtoll in the US not decried as a \”Horrid loss of life\” or \”A mistake\” or \”tragic loss of life\”. Why? Because we arent at war with Los Angeles.
Let me get this straight, the media is more concerned with a war that is safer than the county of Los Angeles? Personally I would rather live in Iraq. At least there I have a better chance of surviving. Maybe we should be more concerned with up armoring vehicles in LA than in Baghdad. People who oppose this war dont know what I know about what is going on over there. Whether AQ was in Iraq or not, they only came there cause they could kill Americans. It wasnt to \”liberate the iraqi people\”. Funny how these \”freedom fighters\” werent around to Liberate Iraq from the grip of an evil evil man. Why? Because evil doesnt fight against itself. And AQ is evil.
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No Ron, I don’t know what you do in the military. I do know, however, that the Bush administration would kill for such evidence and would surely share it with the world in order to gain credibility for this war. But, after two years in Iraq and thousands of interrogations (including shipping detainees to countries that do indeed conduct interrogations under torture), no such credible evidence popped up, as didn’t the evidence of WMDs. It makes no sense that there would be some super-secret motive to keep this information hidden, especially at this point. So, give the option, I’ll sadly have to decline taking your word on it.
Not that I believe that our president wanted to go to war just for shits and giggles. I’m not one to stand with the Cindy Sheehans of the world, holding a ‘Bush lied’ sign. The nearly unanimous UN security council resolution prior to the war clearly shows that everyone thought Saddam had WMDs. If he mislead us, so did the rest of the world.
Still, Bush is the leader…and as a leader, has to take the hit for making unwise decisions. If Bush was CEO of a large corporation, he would surely be canned for steering the company in an erronious direction. Personally, switching motives from WMDs to ‘liberation of Iraqis’ to ‘staying the course’ to legitimize the 2000 casualties just rubs me the wrong way. I would prefer if he was just to come out and admit that he messed up, and tell it how it is: we have to stay there and finish the job or else that place will become a bigger zoo than it already is.
Lastly, 2000 casualties is a relatively small number in warfare provided the war serves US interests. This war hasn’t.
I just don’t believe we seem very credible when we are asserting that we only went into Iraq to rid it’s poor people of an evil dictator. There are lots of other dictators we are actually really cozy with right now, because it supposedly serves our national interest. We render suspects (for torture) to places such as Syria, Uzbekistan and others, all known for violating human rights. We certainly like Pervez Musharraf, a dictator, who overthrew a democracy and who possesses nuclear weapons. And what about our sudden love for Moammar Khadafi, who, many years ago, held the title of \”second Hitler\” that Saddam presently occupies? Those are all dictators, using torture, on their own people, yet we get along with them just fine and even encouraging them to torture people by rendering suspects to them for that purpose.
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