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The other day in class we were working on gun from the front, putting the gun into all types of unusual positions to throw off the defender. At one point, the person I was working with put his left arm in front of his body, bending it so that his forearm was now in front of his body, parallel to the ground, blocking me from getting close (but not touching me). Then, he put the barrel of the gun on top of his forearm in a way that made it impossible for me to grab it. It kind of looked like what you see on cop shows sometimes, in which case a SWAT team member may hold the gun in one hand, a flashlight in the other and puts the gun on top of his forearm (although in this case his arms weren’t crossed).
How would you defend in that situation? The way he held the gun, I could not grab the barrel, because it was resting on his forearm. I could have tried to go underneath his arm, grabbing whatever part of the gun I could get to, but I might not have been able to get in close enough for a punch, because his forearm was also blocking me from coming in (he was a lot bigger than me).
I could try to push his arm upwards, and the gun with it, in one quick motion, but that would give me little control. Likewise, if I slid my hand alongside his arm, to push the gun to the side, I may redirect it for a moment, but it would be hard to get a strong grip on it and he may still be able to pull it back and block me from getting closer.
If he isn’t too tall, grabbing underneath his arm, then punching may work, but it would be hard if he is big and strong. Pushing his arm upwards may be the strongest defense I could do, but then I would have to make sure to grab the gun immediately afterwards and this may be tough.
Maybe grab with one arm underneath, one arm over the top, then kick? Hmmm, all seems risky. Of course, negotiating is always an option, but what if it looks like he’s about to pull the trigger?
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GiantkillerIf you absolutely cannot grab/control the gun, you can do machine gun takedown. The position you describe leaves the attacker fairly open for it.
The main issue with machine gun takedown, however, is that it leaves you with very little control of the weapon, and relies on force/impact to deal with the gunman. It works well, but this is its limitation.
Are there any alternatives to dumping the opponent when doing the machine gun takedown, in case he is a lot bigger? The person I was doing this with was a foot taller and about twice my weight. I don’t believe there is any way I would be able to lift and dump him, at least not with any force behind it (so, even if I can make him fall, he may be able to turn and point the gun back at me).
However, I could get into the general position for the machine gun takedown, maybe strike to the groin instead of lifting. I’d be out of the line of fire for the moment, but how would I get to the gun from there? He’d probably try to spin and put it back on me, hopefully I could catch it then. Or, if he doesn’t spin, if I can get to his right arm from behind and pull it behind his back, maybe I could do a takeaway from there.
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GiantkillerChallenging, again because of weapon control.
We teach the technique to armed soldiers/LE, and instead of the dump we stop at the \”hug\” and then draw and deliver a contact shot.
For civilians, you can deliver groin strikes or attacks to the face, etc. The issue again is control of the weapon.
John, you said \”draw and deliver a contact shot.\” I assume that means that you present your own weapon, but am not familiar with the term \”contact shot.\” Can you explain?
Put your firearm on him and pull the trigger. \”Contact shot\” is just what it sounds like: the muzzle is touching or very close to the target. An actual \”contact shot\” is not necessary; I just wrote it for dramatic affect.
how close was he to you? it sounds like he formed some space inside his arms, so what about bursting under the forearm, and inside that space. almost like a overhead stick defense?
\”dramatic effect\”, eh? 8)
For the machine gun takedaown, I keep thinking about what other counters I could use, once in the \”hug\” position. If his pants are kind of loose, maybe a groin pull/squeeze/tear could cause him some pain (more than just a slap). I may be able to jump on his back and hit his throat with a ridgehand or hammerfist. Or maybe use both hands to hit his ears at the same time, possibly causing him to lose his balance for a moment, then I could try to get to the gun. I should probably try to continue \”hugging\” him, since as long as I am behind him, he can’t shoot me. So I could give some groin shots/pulls, possibly neck or ear strike, then try to make my way over to the arm that is holding the gun, keeping contact with him the whole time, so he can’t spin and face me.
Stick defense, hmmm…. that’s an interesting idea, but I don’t think there would have been enough space in this case. His forearm was at about the height of my neck and he was relatively close, so I think I would have had to squat down before I would have been able to go underneath, which would have been too big a motion. Also, there might not have been enough space for me to move into, his arms were basically forming a little square, about 1 by 1foot wide.
I could have grabbed the gun from underneath his forearm, getting to the wrist or maybe the hand holding the gun, then try to redirect that way, but, because he was taller, I could not have hit him without moving closer and his forearm may have prevented me from doing that.
Maybe I could have grabbed his wrist and pushed his right arm upwards from underneath, thereby lifting the barrel off his arm, then maybe i could have used my right arm to catch the barrel and push it upwards as well, then toward him, over his thumb to do a type of takeaway, maybe using a groin kick instead of a punch as a counter. A kick would have been a better counter in this situation, because it would not have required me to get closer to him and thus it wouldn’t have mattered that his arm was blocking me.
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GiantkillerFor military/LEO folks, would the position GK described be the result of any kind of training? Just like in an empty-hand situation we acknowledge that any training our attacker has will reduce our chances of effectively defending, would it not also be the case here?
Well,
I have never seen anyone pull a weapon on an individual and use this technique in the street. It is highly unlikely this would occur. Machine gun takedown? I see your point John but certainly one would have to think that size, speed, and strength are more of a concern in this situation right? For instance if Giantkiller is attempting to do this to an individual with much greater size and without control of the weapon as you pointed out, would this not seem to be far too risky to attempt?
Perhaps waiting for a better opportunity to strike would be a better option? Odds are if the perp is holding the weapon in the manner suggested, he/she is most certainly not interested in shooting the victim immediately right? Another opportunity will present itself, when it does you must be ready to pounce!
I think if he was truly trained he’d just move back, so I couldn’t grab the gun at all. Also, the stuff you see on cop shows, usually has the gunman cross his wrists, in which case the gun would stick out and I could still grab it.
I don’t know if this is a \”professional\” way to hold the gun. I think a non-professional could conceivably come up with the idea to hold it in that manner.
The problem is that his forearm prevents me from grabbing the barrel, so if I can find a way to push the barrel up, off his forearm, I can then grab it with the other hand. Maybe grab his right arm from underneath, push it up, then use my right arm to grab the barrel (if it comes off his forearm). Something to try. The guy I was working with also trains at some other place and there they showed him a gun from the front technique which was slightly different from ours. You grab the barrel (if the gun is just placed in front to the head, not on his arm), push it upwards, then back toward his face and take it that way. This takeaway may work in this situation, if I can push his right arm up, get the barrel off his arm, then use my other hand to push it up and toward him, take it, maybe use a groin kick if necessary.
We should try this, it’s still a work in progress. 😉 I like the machine gun takedown, but, as I have said, if he is much bigger it may be too risky unless I carry a gun for that \”contact shot\”, or at least some type of knife.
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GiantkillerHey Psyops!
Me lifting that guy would be sort of like John lifting Butterbean.
Me lifting you would be sort of like John lifting that 600 pound Sumo dude the original giant killer Keith Hackney had to fight.
Personally, I’d love to see both! 😉 😆
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GiantkillerMy first thought is to stay with RCAT. I would use a similar approach to a regular handgun to the front; however, you may only be able to lock the wrist on the gun hand. THis move would come from below, just as the regular tecnique. Keep in mind the flexability of the wrist in the Redirect. Try to minimize the wrist flexibility. In order to Redirect, you would have to make a more drastic move to the side, while forcing the wrist and firearm back into the subjects chest, the lower the better. Gain quick Control while delivering the Attack with the opposite fist. Even more important to get the powerful first stike in. Then of course the Takeaway. THis is what you have trained to do, so I wouldn’t deviate to much from the concept. My thought is that the forearm couls work to your advantage, as it minimizes the movement of the handgun and the offenders counters to your move.
As far as contact shooting goes, just remember to rack the second round in, as the contact with the muzzel will not allow another round to chamber. We have trained in LE to hold the back of the slide from moving back. THis allows you to gamb the firearm in with the support hand. Practice this on the range, its a bit intimidating at first, but it is very easy to hold the slide in battery.
It sounds like he’s using the arm as a rest- the kind of thing people do to steady a pistol so you can shoot with greater accuracy (like when you’re by a doorframe or something and you prop your left hand against it with the thumb sticking out to create a level surface to shoot from)- it doesn’t seem useful up close. I might not understand this corretly, but couldn’t you sidestep and pin his arms with forward pressure while you strike, like the old \”gun in the jacket pocket\” thread? If there’s a wall, pin the gun between your body and his , with the gun pointing at a right angle away. If you carry a knife, this could come into play- maintaining pressure with the upper body while drawing it to stab up into the groin or inner thigh, or hooking it into the ribs.
Or, there’s a type of cutting motion I haven’t trained much until recently- by putting the tip into the target (a forearm for instance) and pushing forward like you’re opening a letter (a common scenario give is from a rear bearhug with arms pinned, you draw a knife in a forward grip from your waist level and attack the forearm from the wrist to elbow) This could be used to attack the underside of the forearm of the opponent’s weapon arm while you maintain pressure on the body.
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