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Hello all…
I am interested in a HEALTHY discussion here- no politics, no bashing, no opinions, no “my krav is better than your krav” (with the requisite lips out of sync with the english verbiage), or anything else like that.
I am interested here in two things, and both are factuals not opinions…
:confused:
1- What are the actual PHYSICAL differences in the various disciplines? For example, is the “Choke from the Front” defense different in one or the other? Is the “Front Kick Vertical Target” different?
If you know of videos demonstrating a different combative or defensive, would you post the link so we all can see?
B- Does anyone know of any kind of organizational charts or family trees that show the various disicplines, who leads them, what their connections to Imi or the current IDF might be?
PLEASE, I am not wanting to start yet another exhaustive ad nauseam thread bashing this or that. I am not looking for anyone’s ‘opinions’ of one or the other- just plain verifiable facts. In this thread I don’t really care about this practitioner vs another practitioner- just the physical systems.
Thanx in advance all!
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
Well,
The various organizations are led by Imi’s former students. Well at least the major organizaitons are anyways. None of these organizations have any direct connection to the IDF on a an official capacity. IKMA was the original organization and then money, ego and politics birthed the other organizations. Are there differences in some techniques? Yes. Most of these differences have little to do with Imi and more to do with whoever is running the particular organization and personal preference.
There was a lineage tree at some point but I am not sure where it would be now. Kevin Mack would know though. He knows more about the lineage of Krav Maga Instructors than anyone I know.
The differences are very minor and that is why it is so easy to spot the ummm, let’s say the more questionable ones. With that said too many of these guys have fallen into the trap of believing that their rank or their lineage to Imi is going to line their pockets further. It won’t.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote ghostvet:1- What are the actual PHYSICAL differences in the various disciplines? For example, is the “Choke from the Front” defense different in one or the other? Is the “Front Kick Vertical Target” different?If you know of videos demonstrating a different combative or defensive, would you post the link so we all can see?
I train at a KMWW school and recently bought David Kahns DVD set (IKMA). The principles are very much the same, but you do see differences in some techniques. One of the first differences I noticed is the fighting stance.
The video below is typical of the fighting stance as taught at the school I train at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWXyXIuTqN8
Kahn’s DVD shows a stance that is similar, but he explicitly turns his feet at a 45 degree angle and blades his body. Among other things, he makes the case for doing this by remarking that it’s faster and easier to defend against a groin kick from this position. A possible drawback is that the hands and shoulders don’t have as close to the same reach as they tend to from the more squared stance.
There have been other notable technique differences, but this was one of the first and most obvious that I saw in that DVD series. Though Kahn is affiliated with IKMF, I don’t know if the techniques as he demonstrates them are standard in IKMF or are his adaptations.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
I had a very famous acting coach( George) who was the partner/protege of an even more famous teacher(Michael or Mischa). George never claimed to teach his mentors system even though most of the techniques were the same. This pissed some of michaels personal students off, even though Misha and george worked hand in hand until Misha died in 1955. george died in the mid 90’s. The detractor pointed sometimes to the slightest alterations in tecniques like a fundamentalist
So big frikken whoop. What da heck does this have to do with Krav?
Well goerge said something very profound that the detractors didn’t get. He said it was impossible for him to teach Misha’s tech because only Misha would know what changes he might make 5,10 or 40 years later. see acting is a living breathing art as is a martial art. The only constant in life is change.
The other thing I came to realize from being blessed to teach acting at one point in my life was that my teaching evolved daily and dramatic changes took place in the years later as I personally evolved. We get better
But the biggest difference between groups like these is that even if everyone learned the same thing at imi’s feet they all took away a different perspective. We all see things slightly different and then on top of it bring different experiences into the mix. Thats life
for the confused student nothing is written in stone. stay open minded and look to the princple. Its more important to specific technique. see if it makes sense to you
An example for me in krav that doesn’t make sense to “ME” is blocking wrist to wrist. i don’t like it because it’s hard to hard and hurts. However I’m sure many instructor could show me howv to make it work. I’m open but the princple doesn’t feel right. so maybe some other instructor shows me anotheer way that works better for me
On the stance thing I went to see one of Krav maga LA’s Roy Elgayan’s students teach at a MT place in the valley recently. the upper body was squared and the stance was wide. I was pretty surprised because the groin/inner thigh was very exposed. MT is a ring sport with street apps but to “ME” the stance is much more street applicable. As an aside the MT guys were stomping at the bit to play. I learned at KMWW KMSO the same way as the posted vid feel much better about that stance
So i’m not trying to debate the validity of either of these things. just pointing out that we al do things a bit differently and when we’re lerning something from someone we do it their way then figure out how it works for us. Thats why in the end the Princple is more important than the technique
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote tzrider:I train at a KMWW school and recently bought David Kahns DVD set (IKMA). The principles are very much the same, but you do see differences in some techniques. One of the first differences I noticed is the fighting stance.The video below is typical of the fighting stance as taught at the school I train at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWXyXIuTqN8
Kahn’s DVD shows a stance that is similar, but he explicitly turns his feet at a 45 degree angle and blades his body. Among other things, he makes the case for doing this by remarking that it’s faster and easier to defend against a groin kick from this position. A possible drawback is that the hands and shoulders don’t have as close to the same reach as they tend to from the more squared stance.
There have been other notable technique differences, but this was one of the first and most obvious that I saw in that DVD series. Though Kahn is affiliated with IKMF, I don’t know if the techniques as he demonstrates them are standard in IKMF or are his adaptations.
The stance in the video link noted above is the exact stance we do- KMWW.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
I have literally seen hundreds of street fights up close and I have never seen someone kicked in the groin.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote KevinMack:I have literally seen hundreds of street fights up close and I have never seen someone kicked in the groin.“No Groin, No Krav Maga!”
rofl2
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote KevinMack:I have literally seen hundreds of street fights up close and I have never seen someone kicked in the groin.I went to the MT fights last weekend and saw 4 outta 12 matches:dunno:
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote KevinMack:I have literally seen hundreds of street fights up close and I have never seen someone kicked in the groin.I wonder if that may be because most men consider the groin “sacred ground”. 🙂 However, if I felt the need and had the oppurnity to kick the groin I most likely would. Especially if it would prevent bodily injuty to me.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
My point being that your stance should provide you with the best mobility and the best options for defense and offense. It shouldnt be based around defending one attack that like I said I have never seen happen.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote KevinMack:My point being that your stance should provide you with the best mobility and the best options for defense and offense. It shouldnt be based around defending one attack that like I said I have never seen happen.It’s also one attack that would drop you if landed.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote BradM:I wonder if that may be because most men consider the groin “sacred ground”. 🙂 However, if I felt the need and had the oppurnity to kick the groin I most likely would. Especially if it would prevent bodily injuty to me.Yeah… I think also there is a certain way of thinking in ‘civilized’ cultures (and I use that term loosely) today that consider the groin dirty fighting… Which is good, because they may not expect a groin kick from me if ever needed…
And the way some us in class kick, I doubt any man could even survive a well placed groin kick!!! lol
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote ghostvet:The stance in the video link noted above is the exact stance we do- KMWW.Yes, I train at a KMWW school too.
quote KevinMack:My point being that your stance should provide you with the best mobility and the best options for defense and offense. It shouldnt be based around defending one attack that like I said I have never seen happen.It came as a surprise to me as well. His mobility didn’t look compromised, really; the guy moves around pretty fast, though I see more stepping than bursting. His stance did create a real bias with his hands, both for strikes and defenses.
There are a number of other techniques that were different as well in that video series. For the time being, I’m treating the DVDs as information rather than something to model, where they conflict with my own training. Any system that fragments into different organizations will start to have these departures as they evolve, I guess, but I was a bit surprised that some basic things like this were as different as they are.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
But first and foremost the most important aspect of the original Krav Maga stance(forward outlet stance) is that its not really a “stance”. Its your natural walking stride. This way you dont have to get “into” a stance…you just are.
Re: KMWW, CKM, IKMA, etc, etc, etc
quote ghostvet:Yeah… I think also there is a certain way of thinking in ‘civilized’ cultures (and I use that term loosely) today that consider the groin dirty fighting… Which is good, because they may not expect a groin kick from me if ever needed…And the way some us in class kick, I doubt any man could even survive a well placed groin kick!!! lol
No doubt that a well placed groin kick would (most likely) drop a man in his tracks for some time. However, the operative word is “well placed”. The groin area is not that big of a target and not always open. Unless the guy is standing full frontal facing you, there is a very good chance you will not hit the groin area and hit the leg or chin instead. Still painful, but not enough to put an angry attacker on the round. Just my thoughts anyway!
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