Krav and JiuJitsu?

[giant-killer]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

I take a lot of the ground fighting classes at the NTC and while that doesn’t make me want to slap an arm bar on a guy twice my size, it teaches me defensive moves as well, how to get a person off you if he is mounted, how to defend against an attempted choke, headlock etc, so it will give me better odds if I should ever end up on the ground (which I would try to avoid, but you just never know).

So, you don’t need to become a BB in it, but to have some basic experience in ground fighting is useful in my opinion and compliments KM well.

_________________
Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

Yeah, The first part of this post is what I was trying to avoid. :):

It becomes I’ve lived in tougher places than you and the you get your info from wannabes, etc. And no matter what I say about getting my expirience coming from living in various places, getting my info from LEO’s, top Trainers, Military etc and working in an industry where I get to hang safely with the sinners and saints, it becomes a circular kinda game:dunno:

But that discussion just clouds the real point of my intial post, which simply was “The idea that criminals don’t practice techniques, strategies and train is not a good belief to hold”

To me its a better to train for the worst and hope for the best.

If we disagree thats cool. Different people, different expiriences, different opinions. Be a pretty boring place if we all thought the same things. I do agree with what your saying about the focus and discipline of your average thug and understand the point your making

Take care
mike

quote Psyops:

Sorry Unstabl1,

We will have to agree to disagree. I know you are in L.A. and you think that L.A. is the mecca for gangs but there are other places that are a bit more infested than L.A. Most boxing gyms are in the hood because the real estate is cheaper. It is that simple my man. Also many aspiring boxers come from tougher backgrounds but this does not make them “bangers”. I might remind you that L.A. is full of posers and pretenders in every walk of life. Most of the so called “bangers” wear thong panties and their hearts pump kool-aid.

I live in Las Vegas and the guys who work the range are typically the most ignorant individuals roaming the face of this earth. Wannabe cops who couldn’t cut it. They think any minority with a tattoo and baggy jeans is a banger. So if this is your source of info you might want to check it. How many “bangers’ are training at NTC?

Serious training requires focus, dedications, effort, time, opportunity, mental toughness, and the ability to finish. Not coincidentally these qualities are also required for success in any walk of life. Success and bangers don’t generally mix.

I have personal knowledge of this. I from Oakland, Ca. East Oakland at that. So I know of what I speak. My Hood is so hot we don’t have Bloods and Crips. We laughed at them back in the day. So again my “assumptions” are based on growing up in the real “hood” not the fake hood.

As far as the topic goes BJJ is cool if you value it. While I have a great respect for the system I am a power guy and I believe that avoiding the takedown and getting off the ground as soon as possible are the most important thing. I don’t care about arm bars and leg locks and all that stuff. It means nothing in the street.

[guerriere]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote La Revancha:

As mentioned, I think it’s typically NOT the case that BJJ students are out causing havoc in society, but cases of outliers are documented. They may not be out “bangin” but it has happened.

ADCC Qualifier Cameron Earle’s problems with the law.
http://www.subfighter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=39390

Ryan Gracie’s sad and tragic running amok in Brazil.
http://www.mmatko.com/ryan-gracie-found-dead-in-jail-cell-after-wild-day/

TUF contestant Rob Emerson doing a stint in jail for his part in beating up some kids in OC (he was thrown in jail AGAIN last year).
http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/01/08/if-youre-looking-for-someone-to-root-against-during-the-ufc-81-undercard/

These weirdos give BJJ folks a bad name. >:(

…then there are creeps like this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/07/AR2008020701182.html

I would love to hear the blow-by-blow details of some of these attacks (one of which was at my bus stop!) and how the women fought him off. Obviously the guy is a freaking moron, as evidenced by this charming quote:

quote :

Foltz told a judge that he did not understand the abduction charge because “all I did was tackle her.”

So even without training, the typical (?) street attacker isn’t that hard to defend against (though some women were traumatized to a greater degree than others).

Your class was a great intro, but I don’t feel confident about taking on a BJJ pro gone bad. My plan in that case is to tap out and then rip his eyeballs out if he lets go. Hey, it couldn’t hurt to try!

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

[quote=Guerriere;29665

So even without training, the typical (?) street attacker isn’t that hard to defend against [/quote]

Wow:confused: If that makes you feel safer at night, so be it

[guerriere]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote unstpabl1:

Wow:confused: If that makes you feel safer at night, so be it

Well I am taking krav ya know. :chair: My school doesn’t have one set of techniques for drunks, morons & ineffectual perverts and another set for recently released prisoners who built up musles, honed their fighting skills and worked out their fantasies while they were locked up. It’s all one thing, which is good, since there typically isn’t enough time to interview the bad guy to ask him what his skill level is. :p

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote Guerriere:

Well I am taking krav ya know. :chair: My school doesn’t have one set of techniques for drunks, morons & ineffectual perverts and another set for recently released prisoners who built up musles, honed their fighting skills and worked out their fantasies while they were locked up. It’s all one thing, which is good, since there typically isn’t enough time to interview the bad guy to ask him what his skill level is. :p

Well good luck with that:dunno: even though that wasn’t what the quote implied. Which basically was that your typical attacker will be easy to defend whether you trained or not.

I apologize for not understanding that philosophy. Even a 90lb untrained mother can be dangerous and hard to defend. Corner her and try to hurt her kid. Maybe its a krav mentality/philosophy that I’m simply don’t understanding:dunno:

[thejew]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote Psyops:

As far as the topic goes BJJ is cool if you value it. While I have a great respect for the system I am a power guy and I believe that avoiding the takedown and getting off the ground as soon as possible are the most important thing. I don’t care about arm bars and leg locks and all that stuff. It means nothing in the street.

I really don’t know what a power guy means?

Anyways, as far as not caring about armbars that’s fine for you not to care about them, but to say it means nothing in “the streets” is bull. Yeah your not going to triangle soemone in a bar brawl. My standup is very good, but I’m not going to discount that someone will try to get me to teh ground because i’m a 230lb bodybuilder, some people think it’s easier to go to the ground than stand with a guy with my size and power, they’d be right if I didn’t have a ground game. It would probably take me less time to break his arm or shoulder than it would for me to stand up.

[giant-killer]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

” Foltz told a judge that he did not understand the abduction charge because “all I did was tackle her.” rofl2

Man’s a genius. He should represent himself at trial. thumbsup

unstp seems testy today. Is it because the strike is over? ;):

_________________
Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

[quote=Giant Killer;29688unstp seems testy today. Is it because the strike is over? ;):

_________________
Giantkiller[/quote]

Didn’t mean to come off as testy. truthfully didn’t understand. I’m usually testy when my posts are longrofl2

[maddogmean]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

Funny I had this conversation with a friend this weekend. He had an informal sparring session with a BJJ student. The BJJ guy put him into a guillotine and my friend attempted a groin strike. The BJJ student asked “Where you trying to hit me in the groin?” as if it was a dirty tactic.

I told my friend that demonstrating Krav against a BJJ student is a little difficult without “anything goes” rules. I also told him that Krav strikes and defenses would most likely keep him from being in the guillotine in the first place.

I agree that BJJ is an awesome discipline. But it would be real hard to defend against a weapon attack with an arm bar.

[thejew]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote MadDogMean:

Funny I had this conversation with a friend this weekend. He had an informal sparring session with a BJJ student. The BJJ guy put him into a guillotine and my friend attempted a groin strike. The BJJ student asked “Where you trying to hit me in the groin?” as if it was a dirty tactic.

I told my friend that demonstrating Krav against a BJJ student is a little difficult without “anything goes” rules. I also told him that Krav strikes and defenses would most likely keep him from being in the guillotine in the first place.

I agree that BJJ is an awesome discipline. But it would be real hard to defend against a weapon attack with an arm bar.

I agree with ya, that’s why me and my boy go toe to toe anything goes, we bought the headgear mouthpiece cups of course and go at it, we try not to gouge eyeballs is pretty much the only rule we have made since we’ve both been poked while sparring with each other.

I’m probably not your traditional BJJ guy though I guess since I’m not sparring stictly BJJ and using nothing else. If I did use just BJJ I’d probably get my ass kicked unless I could get him to the ground without eating too many punches kicks or knees, I doubt it though cause he’s a pretty good striker himself.

[psyops]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

Well,

The power guy is meant that power is my biggest weapon. Hitting an attacker as hard as I can is always preffered. I am not discounting BJJ. I love the stuff though I am not proficient yet. It has no place in the street in my opinion. Are you going to shoot in on cement? Are you going to arm bar? Are you going to leg lock? I think not.

The “Street fights always end up on the ground” argument is old and tired. If two people who don’t know how to fight are involved in an altercation then probably a lot of hugging and wrestling occurs and yes it ends up on the ground. But as Kravist we should know better than to allow this to occur. We should attack the source with an attitude of overwhelming the person with a barrage of punches, elbows, kicks, knees, beer bottles, sticks, rocks, etc… I don’t think that BJJ schools train in this. Does this make Krav better? No. Not at all in fact. It makes Krav different and BJJ being as effective of a system as it is, it is still not street.

Unstapbl1,

I agree with you that we should always train for the worst. My attitude in the street is simple. I don’t care what the guy knows. In the street you are not afforded the luxury of knowing what your opponent knows. So does it really matter? I think not. I think that what matters is our own skill and ability to go from passive to aggressive in a moments notice. It is not BJJ, TKD, KRAV, etc… It is the individual who has the most desire to survive that will ultimately determine the effectiveness of a system.

I like this topic! So no offense was meant on my earlier post.

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote Psyops:

Unstapbl1,

I agree with you that we should always train for the worst. My attitude in the street is simple. I don’t care what the guy knows. In the street you are not afforded the luxury of knowing what your opponent knows. So does it really matter? I think not. I think that what matters is our own skill and ability to go from passive to aggressive in a moments notice. It is not BJJ, TKD, KRAV, etc… It is the individual who has the most desire to survive that will ultimately determine the effectiveness of a system.

I like this topic! So no offense was meant on my earlier post.

None was takenthumbsup That passive to aggressive thing controled like a switch is the key

[cjs-dad]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

quote unstpabl1:

None was takenthumbsup That passive to aggressive thing controled like a switch is the key

I totally agree ñ aggressiveness and whatever it takes attitude is what wins the fight. And the ability to flip that switch as Mike was saying.

I think my biggest problem when training and especially teaching is safety in training. Not because I flail but because I have 2 speeds off and on and itís hard to demo a technique for me at a medium pace. I KNOW this is my biggest fault, I know in class as a student I can come off as lazy or bored. But thatís not the case, itís because I donít want to literally kill my training partner. I need to work on control because my personalityís to be aggressive and control doesnít come easy for me.

To date I have never hurt a training partner but Iíve also never flipped that switch while training.

Part of our training is to be aggressive, to open that floodgate and tap into our primal instinct to survive at all costs and for me at least thatís what sets Krav Maga apart from other styles. BJJ, TKD, etc etc.

Look at the Fight Quest video link Ryan posted, while training in Israel those guys said it was the first time they actually felt like they were going to die, thereís a reason for that.

Just my .02

[unstpabl1]

Re: Krav and JiuJitsu?

Thats the thing with thugs, criminals, bangers, whatever you chose to call them. They live and can’t conrtrol that aggressive rage. Their dangerous and unpredictable because of it. They don’t give a rats ass about anyone. We all know guys where the hair stands up on the back of our necks on first sight

Now take the average martial art students. Their respectful and caring people. Yeah we all have that dark side, but that switch is buried deep. It gets deeper with age. We don’t really want to hurt anyone. For me its not my nature.. I wanna laugh… Besides it never made any sense to me to hate someone cause thet lived 2 blocks away:D:

Some have never really seen the dark side. I seen it a few times and to be honest it scared the crap out of me. Once a long time ago and while breaking up a fight I grabbed a guy by his throat and pinned him to a car trunk. I kept telling him to chill. My buddy who was the bouncer was telling me to let him go he was finished and the guy was trying to apoligize, but I was squeezing his adams apple. He was turning colors. I didn’t believe him, but relented. I let go and stepped back. The bouncer didn’t. The guy came off the trunk and caught the bouncer square. Out cold. My best friend. I weighed maybe a buck and a quarter, the other guy almost 200. I picked him up over my head and diliberately carried him accross the street to slam him head first into the curb…Luckily I missed but when the 2 cops pulled me off I was still banging his head off the ground continously. Again luckily we hit a dirt area not sidewalk.

Now the thing is I switched and really for a while after didn’t realize what I did. People told me. now I’m not telling this to look cool or to be a net tough guy. CJ’s Dad has met me, I ain’t crap. And I’m a tad over 125lbs nowrofl2. I could probably make it through a LEVEL 1 class right up to the point where they turned on the music to beginthumbsup The point is that I really was never the type of person to hurt another. It even bugs me to hurt someones feelings. So we all have that dark side, but for some of us its a hard and scary place to go. For a thug, he just don’t care

So that the challenge for instructors and its also complicated by student retention. Make the school too hardcore and only the few will stay. And to get students to be able to approach thet dark side.

The safety issue is probably always there, but I think Sean that deevelopes the higher ego or the watcher if you will. Sorry going in acting teacher mode for a second:OhMy:

When I went to slam the guys head into the curb, I could’ve killed him, but I wasn’t aware of the doing. People told me about them after.I’ve had performances like that. I remember wanting to vomit before going on stage… then intermission. They were usually good performances. But I also had one bad one where i came out of it and had no idea where I was. Luckily it was a monologue and I faked it. But as I grew and through working fundamentals we develope another awareness that protects us from screwing up our careers or our lives. But we can’t do that without discipline. And the controled fighter is the dangerous one. Meaning practicing levels of aggression and protecting the partner developes awareness

I think sport arts like bjj and boxing approach that. And truthfully If I could start this all over, I’d start with judo/boxing, but there ends up being a comfort zone in them. It becomes play though a pretty darn intense play.

To my very uneducated eye the thing krav excells at is tapping that dark side and justifing it. Teaching people to turn on and off that button through the drills I’ve seen. Krav students are fairly cocky at a point, but their is a confidence to them. They believe the can apply what they’ve learned. In a way its obnoxious and cool at the same time:razz:

I remember one drill I did years ago when I tried a class. It was awesome. Station one pushed you from behind. You front shoulder rolled and came up punching. When released run accross the room throw roundhouses. When released run thru a guantlet of guys holding pads. to another station of knees, then accross the room again for a station of elbows. Something like that. Certainly turned on my switch

Sorry for the long post. Have gout today, so I’m blaming it on the vicadin :woohoo: Actually i hate the crap, but my neighbors complain when I screamrofl2

quote CJs Dad:

I totally agree – aggressiveness and whatever it takes attitude is what wins the fight. And the ability to flip that switch as Mike was saying.

I think my biggest problem when training and especially teaching is safety in training. Not because I flail but because I have 2 speeds off and on and it’s hard to demo a technique for me at a medium pace. I KNOW this is my biggest fault, I know in class as a student I can come off as lazy or bored. But that’s not the case, it’s because I don’t want to literally kill my training partner. I need to work on control because my personality’s to be aggressive and control doesn’t come easy for me.

To date I have never hurt a training partner but I’ve also never flipped that switch while training.

Part of our training is to be aggressive, to open that floodgate and tap into our primal instinct to survive at all costs and for me at least that’s what sets Krav Maga apart from other styles. BJJ, TKD, etc etc.

Look at the Fight Quest video link Ryan posted, while training in Israel those guys said it was the first time they actually felt like they were going to die, there’s a reason for that.

Just my .02

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