- This topic has 44 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: Left Hook Punch
Hmm.. nobody here is “hot and bothered” as you say. I think we are just trying to articulate for the benefit of those reading, the argument against the antiquated and unnecessary boxing technique of pivoting on the hooks.
Turning your side to pivot while punching is acceptable, however turning your side when defending on 360 isn’t… A square stance is taught for striking and defending in Krav Maga. But not on the hook, now its ok to turn your body sideway even when it isn’t necessary… It opens you up to takedowns and leg kicks. This makes no sense to me from a self defense perspective.
Maybe nobody believes they can be taken down. That nobody walking around on the street has any wrestling skills. Defending against takedowns is the first step in “groundfighing 101”. So lets start defending against it by not doing the pivot.. makes sense to me. Especially since I am not teaching wrestlers, but the average mom, professional, student and they have to be given as big an edge against that skilled person as I can possibly give them.
Krav Maga is also built on the idea that if it is time to move forward, we do. On the pivot- its time we move forward and realize that its not the best option anymore.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Guessing you stay square, with no pivot or “turning your side” when throwing a round kick, huh? I mean, no one ever gets taken down while doing a round kick, do they? Guess that’s antiquated, too, and we should stop pivoting for the round kick…or maybe we should just know when and how to set it up and use it properly. 360 technique is irrelevant…seems to be a pattern.
Look, you say I’m wrong, I say everyone can try and do what works for them. I’m ok with that, and I’m not egotistical enough to think “my” way is the only way.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Well I actually don’t throw round kicks for self defense.. Too many variables, slippery ground, takedowns- but we have already discussed that on the forum. I train them for sparring or so that I can learn to defend against them. So that doesn’t make any sense Ryan…
And 360 its irrelevent? I don’t think so. And its too bad you view me having an opinion and being able to articulate reasons for it as “egotistical”.
Well if turning your back on a 360 works for a student… then by your logic we should allow them? I mean, if its working for them ok.
Re: Left Hook Punch
So, you don’t teach round kicks in your KM classes? You throw them in MMA? What about takedowns, though? I mean, how do you not get taken down at will?
You can throw out all of the crazy, irrelevant analogies/comparisons you want…just red herrings. Your 360 analogy was irrevelant to the conversation.
By the way, I have no problem with folks not pivoting or thinking that’s the best way to do things…I just think the anti-pivoting reasons are BS and presenting the argument in a manner as it being the only way and everyone else “just doesn’t get it”, is egotistical.
Re: Left Hook Punch
I think this discussion has run it’s course as far as educational value. Hopefully everyone will try out all methods available to them and do what works for them, not just what works for folks with tremendous attributes. Oasktf, good luck with your training.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Hmm.. I though I explain it but I will repeat it.
I teach the round kick, but I don’t advocate it in self-defense situations recognizing that it creates too many problems. However we still teach it because some people think throwing a round kick and pivoting on one leg in a self-defense situation is a good idea, so I want my students to be able to defend against them. Same as we don’t like to use spinning heel kick in self-defense situations, yet we teach them so we can learn to defend against them. Also, same as I teach my students to recognize the front leg piviot on a punch and also to capitalize on that.
Re: Left Hook Punch
I thought we were having exactly the discussion the forum was created for- debating the techniques and sharing ideas, etc… Well I am still here if anyone else would like to discuss it more, I still find it interesting.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Kirsten, I’m all for a good discussion, it’s just gone way off the OP’s question, and I didn’t want to monopolize, but you said a few things that are interesting to me. I’m not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, but I think there’s value to furthering the discussion, from a student’s and teacher’s perspective.
I find the “we teach them to learn how to defend against them” argument pretty lacking. You teach round kicks in level 1? To me, it seems like a waste of time if that’s the case. If folks are training twice a week (which is pretty typical), for me to spend time on something I don’t advocate my students doing, on the off chance someone my try to do it to me, just doesn’t seem like a good use of their time. I’d rather spend the time in more productive ways. I also don’t equate a spinning hook kick to round kick, but that’s just me.
Re: Left Hook Punch
I, for one ( not that anybody asked!!) have been thoroughly enjoying listening (reading) two very well respected instructors discussing this technique.
My lead hook is probably my weakest upper body strike (not just in power, but weakest in form, style, etc). If I do NOT pivot, I feel the power is lacking horribly…perhaps that is because I have only trained with the pivot.In sparring (I have passed level three, to give some idea of where I am), I find that IF I have set it up correctly, and am in the right position, I am in not too much extra danger of getting taken down or struck to the legs. I do feel SOME extra element of exposure, but not so much as to make it worth not having the power, and possibly not having the strike do its job.
Where does the power come from without the pivot, the shoulder? Body-only rotation?
I would like nothing more than to train with both of you for an hour working my left hook, and see how I feel after that (besides sore as hell!!)Thank you both for giving your opinions (strong as they may be) and backing them up with real-world rationale.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Smokelaw1, I appreciate the comments, and you’re welcome to train at our place any time (my partner does seminars in CT some times.) I’ll let Kirsten/Oneness answer your question about power…just to reiterate, though, I’m not against that school of thought, I just disagree with the reasoning for not pivoting.
On another note, I got an email from a Fit to Fight affiliate about this, so I’ll address to mitigate confusion. In Fit to Fight, we do teach a kick version which does not use much pivot(we teach the traditional Thai kick as well), because we feel (for sport fighting) a takedown can be a real issue with the traditional Thai kick, especially if thrown in the wrong context or against a good wrestler. We feel that’s much more likely than a takedown off of a hook punch.
The discussion is interesting. I remember training with John Hackleman once (Lidell’s trainer), and he said Chuck’s favorite takedown defense was a left hook. Now, I’m not advocating that for us normal folks, but it’s interesting to listen to all sides and take what’s useful to you.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Well this is probably another one of my “crazy analogy, red herrings” as Ryan would call it, but we don’t pivot on an elbow… and the “we teach them to learn how to defend against them” is what John Whitman taught me on the spinning hell kick actually, so if its weak then, sorry but I am just explaining how it was given to me. Which still makes sense to me today. I may never use it in self defense, but I should be aware that somebody else may- so I should learn to defend against it. I teach the round kick and spinning kicks because it is actually part of the KM curriculum, the piviot is not.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Kirsten, John gave that rationale for round kicks?
Oh and I’m not physicist, but I’m quite certain distance does not equal power.
Re: Left Hook Punch
No, but I will explain it again… “John Whitman taught me on the spinning heel kick “. This was during phase training. Nobody could understand why we were learning spinning heel, so that is how he explained one of the reasons for teaching it. Made good sense.
As for the physics of it for what is typicaly called a straight-line collision and used for MVA’s and vehicles but is relevant to the line of a punch from point A to point B I think. The average impact force x distance traveled = change in kinetic energy. So the further distance an object travels, it has the abilty to gain more speed and therefore typically create more power upon impact. If a moving object is stopped by a collision for example, extending the stopping distance will reduce the average impact force. This is good for us because we are also taught jamming kicks or punches to take power away from it, like stepping in slightly, etc. So yes distance can actually equal greater power.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Which I should clarify that extending the stopping distance as it related to punches is slightly different than a collision. We want to take power away by not extending the stopping distance, but actually reducing the distance travelled. Hope that clears it up. As for where the power comes from smokelaw1, its comes from driving through your legs, using your hips and torso to create torque as you connect the hook. I find most often that people are too close to the target when they first start to punch, so maybe take that half step back and then work on finding your natural range. Hope all of this helps some and good luck with your training.
Re: Left Hook Punch
Kristen, so with the distance you mentioned in the last post does that mean your not talking about tight hook but more of an extended hook or what I like the think of as a controlled haymaker. I don’t mean that in a negitive dumb street thug meaning but to me an extended hook is either a quick almost knuckle slap or a strong haymaker intended to knock someone out but thrown with technique.
I seem to rotate more the closer I get to the target. IE an outside fully extended hook has very little pivot but if I’m on the dead side almost behind the shoulder there will be a larger pivot as I come across for the hook.
Also to add to the origional topic I was taught a large pivot in lvl 1 to get the idea of the power of the punch and staying light on the feet, as I’ve progressed I found my own comfort level where sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t (as mentioned above)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
