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Re: Legality of intervention
Maybe at least a few ppl reading this thread, can be at least a bit more inclined next time they see something happening help now that great posts explaining why are seen here. At very least it’s not hard or very dangerous to pick up phone and call for help.
Re: Legality of intervention
I had a situation happen to me when I was 22. A friend and I were in a Tokyo subway. It was pretty late and there were very few people around. There was very drunk businesman waiting for the train when a young punk started harassing him. The young guy started punching and kicking the man who was too drunk to defend himself. I wanted to intervene, but knew I wouldn’t be able to explain to the police what happened. If the punk turned on me and I defended myself, how could I avoid getting arrested in foreign country. I still wish I would have done something.
Re: Legality of intervention
It’s really going to depend on where you live, the law varies from state to state. If its something your truely concerned about I would try get a copy of the law relating to the “protection of another”. In KY you are justified in using physical and deadly force for the protection of a third party if the person whom you are protecting would have been justified to use the same force.
At the very least call 911 and standby to help victim after the attack.
Re: Legality of intervention
quote MadDogMean:I had a situation happen to me when I was 22. A friend and I were in a Tokyo subway. It was pretty late and there were very few people around. There was very drunk businesman waiting for the train when a young punk started harassing him. The young guy started punching and kicking the man who was too drunk to defend himself. I wanted to intervene, but knew I wouldn’t be able to explain to the police what happened. If the punk turned on me and I defended myself, how could I avoid getting arrested in foreign country. I still wish I would have done something.Probably the guy would have been so shocked and uncomfortable simply with encountering a Western foreigner he likely would have desisted in his actions. The same with the involvement of police – they may well have just left you alone, not wanting to deal with the hassle, even not taking a statement as evidence against the other guy. Also the attacker probably would have immediately ‘fessed up. In Japan the legal system has an outrageously high conviction rate – court cases are more or less a formality in what is an otherwise ‘slam dunk’ situation – helped by the fact that cases are prepared fastidiously, prosecutors who are unlikely to touch anything less than a sure win and a heavy reliance on confessions, many made allegedly under ‘duress’. Japan is a fascinating place – I’ve been there before.
Re: Legality of intervention
quote Chocolate Soldier:Probably the guy would have been so shocked and uncomfortable simply with encountering a Western foreigner he likely would have desisted in his actions. The same with the involvement of police – they may well have just left you alone, not wanting to deal with the hassle, even not taking a statement as evidence against the other guy. Also the attacker probably would have immediately ‘fessed up. In Japan the legal system has an outrageously high conviction rate – court cases are more or less a formality in what is an otherwise ‘slam dunk’ situation – helped by the fact that cases are prepared fastidiously, prosecutors who are unlikely to touch anything less than a sure win and a heavy reliance on confessions, many made allegedly under ‘duress’. Japan is a fascinating place – I’ve been there before.The only thing I thought about was the guy turning on me and we start fighting then not being able to explain to the police. After thinking about it, he probably would have stopped if I just yelled at him.
Re: Legality of intervention
“Probably the guy would have been so shocked and uncomfortable simply with encountering a Western foreigner he likely would have desisted in his actions. The same with the involvement of police – they may well have just left you alone, not wanting to deal with the hassle, even not taking a statement as evidence against the other guy. Also the attacker probably would have immediately ‘fessed up. In Japan the legal system has an outrageously high conviction rate – court cases are more or less a formality in what is an otherwise ‘slam dunk’ situation – helped by the fact that cases are prepared fastidiously, prosecutors who are unlikely to touch anything less than a sure win and a heavy reliance on confessions, many made allegedly under ‘duress’. Japan is a fascinating place – I’ve been there before.”
Friends of mine were in Paris some time ago. The woman was pick pocketed. When she realized it she screamed at the pick pocketer. Luckly for the lady, a couple of Paris police officers in civilain clothes were close by and apprehended the bad guy (a couple young women). The police took my friends in custody also and kept them almost all day – causing them to almost their ship (they were on a cruise). The police took their passprts and would not give them back until a crew member (officer) from the ship came and vouched for them. Not too friendly to Westerner’s in my opinion.
Japan is a facinating place. I’ve been there several times. The Japanese police are someone you do not want to mess with.
Re: Legality of intervention
Although it may vary from state to state, I think from a legal perspective coming from a position of “defense of self or others” is always going to be stronger than “defense of property….” although stopping a thief may get your name in the paper, defending or not defending some other person regardless of whether there is a personal connection is going to be easier to defend from a legal perspective – using “reasonable force” without escalating the situation is the key….
Re: Legality of intervention
quote MadDogMean:I had a situation happen to me when I was 22. A friend and I were in a Tokyo subway. It was pretty late and there were very few people around. There was very drunk businesman waiting for the train when a young punk started harassing him. The young guy started punching and kicking the man who was too drunk to defend himself. I wanted to intervene, but knew I wouldn’t be able to explain to the police what happened. If the punk turned on me and I defended myself, how could I avoid getting arrested in foreign country. I still wish I would have done something.That was one of my first thoughts when I read the thread…seeing someone defenseless being assualted and choosing to do nothing would be a difficult decision to live with…..but easy to opine from a “hypothetical” standpoint, right…
Re: Legality of intervention
Hello All,
Long time “lurker” and I finally decided to create an account and log in, and write a response.
I just wanted to say get involved. Be smart about it, be aware of your surroundings, assess the situation, and then by all means protect those that are being assaulted, either physically or verbally.
One of the most compelling issues to practice Krav is the moral aspect of this art. According to the history section of this website we read.
“During the 1930s, Imi honed his fighting skills in the streets of Bratislava, protecting himself and his Jewish neighbors from local fascist thugs. He took part in numerous fights to prevent anti-Semitic groups from terrorizing the Jewish community in the city.”We see the origins are protecting ourselves and others, which is moral act. Now in regards to the law, which I have worked with the LASD, there were many times where we would “roll” up on a scene where someone intervened (even a little too much) and their actions were appreciated, and even applauded.
Also, I have the mentality of a sheepdog, others are sheep. When a wolf comes around and the sheep are in danger, the sheepdog starts to work. Basically if a lady is getting raped, stabbed, yelled at with her kids there is no way this will happen on my watch, I might get into trouble with the law, but I will sleep well at night.
Please don’t interpret my action or mentality as hostile, I would do everything to deescalate this specific incident, but one thing is for certain, the guy would not continue to focus his angry energy on the woman and her children, at least not on my watch.
Respectfully,
Mr. Jerk
Re: Legality of intervention
quote BradM:Friends of mine were in Paris some time ago. The woman was pick pocketed. When she realized it she screamed at the pick pocketer. Luckly for the lady, a couple of Paris police officers in civilain clothes were close by and apprehended the bad guy (a couple young women). The police took my friends in custody also and kept them almost all day – causing them to almost their ship (they were on a cruise). The police took their passprts and would not give them back until a crew member (officer) from the ship came and vouched for them. Not too friendly to Westerner’s in my opinion.Japan is a facinating place. I’ve been there several times. The Japanese police are someone you do not want to mess with.
How unfortunate for your friends that they were doubly inconvenienced – what a strange reaction from the Parisian police. Maybe they were still miffed by the ‘Freedom Fries’ business.
The last time I was in Japan I saw a documentary about a hit & run case, which, I assume, involved fatalities. It was quite something to see this huge task force of forensic investigators and smart-suited detectives unraveling the layers of the onion with incredible drive & enthousiasm.
Our host explained in cases like this the Japanese police have an amazing, almost 100% solve/conviction rate.Apparently they are also known to use ‘coercive’ methods to elicit confessions – which brings up another point, in some places you just don’t want to have a brush with the law. I’ve been to some station houses in developing countries and trust me you just do not want to end up there under any circumstances.
As for subject of intervening – the discussion in this thread is interesting. Thinking about it – I was reminded of stories where people who attempted to intervene got the violence directed upon them instead, sometimes with bad results (typically alcohol-related bar brawl or street situations). This is also a possible outcome.
I also think mentioning or even the threat of the police being called can sometimes rapidly defuse a situation in a way that is less confrontational for the 3rd party – I’ve seen this cause people to cease what they were doing.
Re: Legality of intervention
Chocolate Soldier,
On My post about my friends in Paris, there is another side to the coin. My wife and I were in Paris this past April for a week. We found everyone we talked too very hospitable and helpful. We were accepted and treated quite well by all from our hotel staff, restarants, to people on the street that we asked for help. We asked two young girls directions that spoke very little English. They went out of their way to walk with us and show us our destination.Re: Legality of intervention
When intervening goes terribly wrong – detailed analysis of how an incident built up and spiralled out of control with disastrous consequences.
People underestimate the danger of knives – edged weapons are a big problem in the UK, especially amongst youths:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7912176.stm
When a “madman” armed with knives threatened his younger brother outside a bar in south-east London, teenage actor Rob Knox stepped in to protect him.But the “courage and sense of duty” he felt when he waded into the brawl where five others were also stabbed last May cost the 18-year-old his life
Rob Knox was “living the dream” having played the part of Marcus Belby in the film Harry Potter And The Half-Blood Prince, his father Colin Knox said at his funeral.“Rob loved the part of Marcus Belby.
“He loved being part of the international iconic story of Harry Potter.”
The “big teddy bear”, from Sidcup, was “loved by everyone” and “kind and thoughtful”, his family and friends said.His younger brother, 17-year-old Jamie Knox, told the Old Bailey his brother was very protective, but “he wouldn’t do anything unless he felt it was necessary”.
But his decision to intervene when 22-year-old Karl Bishop confronted Jamie saw him become the 14th teenager to die violently in London in a spate of killings in 2008.
Karl Bishop is a man who “carries knives like others carry pens in their pockets”, Brian Altman QC, prosecuting, told the trial.
Bishop told the court that he had been an angry child, and was expelled at the age of 14 when he got in trouble with the police.
He was jailed in May 2005 for slashing two youths’ faces and spent nearly two years in prison.‘Chilling prediction’
A week before the fatal stabbing Bishop had been involved in two altercations with Rob Knox and his friends at the Metro Bar in Sidcup.
The prosecutor said that that night Bishop had accused people at the bar of stealing his phone.
Bishop had tried to search Rob Knox’s pockets for it, but Rob refused to let him.
Bishop then punched Rob’s friend Dean Saunders, 18, (who was also later stabbed) and the group retaliated.Rob Knox “thought the world of Jamie”, the court heard
Bishop ran away, only to return with a piece of wood demanding a fight.
With thoughts of revenge, he was heard to make a chilling prediction: “I’m going to come back next week and someone’s going to die.”
A week later, on the night of 24 May, Bishop, who was drunk and had been smoking cannabis, turned up at the Metro Bar.
Bishop was not allowed inside, and got into another punch-up outside with another man, came off worst and fled.
Humiliated, he went home, where he said a “red mist” descended upon him and he picked up two kitchen knives.
“I took two, because two is scarier than one and I was angry at the time.
“I had just been beaten up – twice in two weeks,” he said.
“My assumption was that it was the same people as it was the same place, so I was quite angry.”He denied that he planned to use them – saying he just “wanted to scare whoever was down there”.
On his way back to the bar he then threatened another youth, Nicky Jones, 19, who was also later stabbed, outside a nearby Tesco Express.
Jamie Knox saw this and tried to intervene but Bishop then turned on him.
Another of Rob’s friends, Callum Turner, 19, drove his car between Bishop and Jamie, but Bishop then threatened Callum with the knife too.
A message got to Rob Knox, who was in the bar, that his brother had been threatened with a knife and he went outside.Mr Altman said: “There stood the defendant outside, brandishing his two knives.
“Not surprisingly, a crowd mushroomed in size around him.
“Rob Knox thought the world of Jamie and it is quite clear and entirely understandable that Rob must have believed, on good grounds, that Jamie was in danger.”
Mr Altman said: “Unfortunately his courage and sense of duty were to cost him his life.”
The court heard that Rob asked Bishop: “Why did you pull a knife on my brother?”
Bishop then called out: “Who’s going to make my day?”
But Rob replied: “I am not fighting you with knives, put the knives away.”‘A madman’
His friend Tarik Ozresberoglu said: “He went over there like a man, with nothing in his hands, not with knives.”
Bishop warned he “would stab anyone who came near him”, Mr Altman said, but when he put the knives away, another youth punched him.
Rob Knox’s friends who gave evidence said then Bishop became a “madman”.
Bishop claimed he acted in self-defence – that the group of 10 youths that surrounded him attacked him.
“There was no other option. They ran at me, they attacked me.
“Then as they kept running at me the knife was catching them while they kept running into it.
“You wouldn’t think people would run at someone who’s got a knife.“I was just trying to get away.”
In the melee Rob Knox rugby-tackled Bishop, who stabbed him repeatedly, severing a main artery.
Bishop’s other victims were stabbed in the chest, legs, arms, face and hand, one of them suffering “significant spinal damage”.
Mr Altman said Bishop’s stab attack was “out of proportion to anything happening to him, so over-the-top it cannot be regarded as lawful self-defence”.
The jury agreed, and Bishop, of Beaver Lodge, Carlton Road, Sidcup was convicted of murder.
He was also found guilty wounding Dean Saunders with intent to cause him grievous bodily harm.
Bishop was found not guilty of wounding Tom Hopkins.
He will be sentenced on Thursday.By Anna-Louise Taylor
BBC NewsRe: Legality of intervention
At face value – ongoing problems between the same parties at the same public location spanning a time period of a couple of weeks – it sounds as though this situation could have been avoided by everyone involved on Both sides, even up to the point where the knives were already brandished. Say sorry (even if you’re not at fault, even if you don’t mean it), buy the idiot a drink, buy him a girl, sneak away, back away, run away, whatever it takes… Tragic…
Re: Legality of intervention
Check state local laws. That is the ansewer every area has different levels of when a person can’t be sued or arrested. When is the assualt your breaking up a felony ect ect.
Re: Legality of intervention
quote :“wife notices man screaming obscenities at woman with 2 kids at her hands and very close to her face very aggressively, the woman looked freaked out and my wife grabs me tells me do something.. I didn’t want to get too involved I thought it was domestic(wife/husband)”This may be off topic, but I have to take issue with this because for some reason when a situation is “domestic”, people are less inclined to get involved. The threat level actually increases when the aggressor and the victim are in a relationship. Just doing what kvmorl did, just taking the focus of rage off the woman and kids at least sends the message that this is not ok, regardless of the relationship between the man and the woman in this case.
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