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quote \”marine_mojo\:Shawn
The MarinesÖalso known as the Menís department of the Navy 😈Or My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment! 😉
AirForceCop
\”In the AF, by and large, the only career field that sees any H2H is my own, Security Forces (military police). \”This might be true today, I don’t know. And I agree that most Air Force people do not receive H2H. But, during my time 1960 – 1986, I know for a fact that Air force Combat Controllers received both combat and H2H training. While stationed in Weisbaden in the early 60’s the Combat Controllers used to train with the Army Airborne there. Their training may not have came close to what the Marines get, but none the less they received H2H. Also, I can’t swear by it, but I think some of the Air Force PJ’s also received a little H2H.
By the way – Thank you for your service.
Brad,
That’s likely still the case. I have little experience/dealings with those 2 career fields, as they are so small and specialized. I do know both receive a great deal of combat training, not so sure on what they get H2H.
I did generalize somewhat, but didn’t intend to be all inclusive. 😆 Interestingly, the climate in the AF is changing greatly, to where ALL career fields are getting at least a minimum of combat training -usually right before they deploy–reflecting the changing war we find ourselves in. Of course, that doesn’t approach the level of the Army and Marines, but it is far more than most are used to in the AF. 😆
Giantkiller,
That’s exactly what I thought going through the training.
My brother is in the army serving in Iraq. When I first read the thread, i sent him the link for the Army H2H manual and asked him if he received any basic H2H training before he deployed and he said no. He wrote probably the combat units that went out on patrols/missions but there were no requirements for him to compete H2H before deployment.
I was kinda disappointed when he wrote that but being ex-army myself, I figured someone scratched that training requirement out for his section in the belief that it wasn’t a critical task for his unit/section.
So, has the training soldiers in the Army (or other branches) receive changed over the years? I know someone once posted a clip and also links to old WWII training footage and manuals. Some of that even looked reminiscent of KM. Are those methods still used, or have they been replaced by BJJ?
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GiantkillerYes, it has changed from those old manuals, which were more Judo based as I recall, with basic striking, weapons/wpns defense incorporated. It has been replaced in recent years with BJJ. At first I thought it might just be the Army base where I did my pre-deployment training for Iraq. But Army officers I served with in-country confirmed that is their service wide program. Unfortunately, BJJ, at least as the Army is teaching it, ignores realities of military H2H combat, like heavy body armor, gear, and access to much more lethal options. As I mentioned before, the lack of standup options, the risk of being on the ground while multiple insurgents attack, and the emphasis on submission rather than rapid defeat of your opponent were disturbing – particularly after having been through the ground fighting that Krav teaches to military/LE, which teaches the difficulties of moving on the ground with gear, regaining your feet as quickly as possible, and going back to higher force options as needed.
AirforceCop
\”Interestingly, the climate in the AF is changing greatly, to where ALL career fields are getting at least a minimum of combat training -usually right before they deploy–reflecting the changing war we find ourselves in. Of course, that doesn’t approach the level of the Army and Marines, but it is far more than most are used to in the AF\”
I’m really glad to hear that. I think I read about that a while back. Also, I heard or read somewhere that the Air Force physical fitness requirements have become a little more aggressive. I hope that is true too.
Back to the combat training. I was in aircraft maintenance, one of the specialties that \”did not require combat training\”. During the early stages of Vietnam, I was stationed at Yokota AB, Japan. While there I got involved in some special air missions, frequently going TDY to the PI and \”south\”. I was in Vietnam in 1961/1962. Hell, I didn’t even know where Vietnam was nor who \”charley\” was. We had not received any training to defend ourselves other than small arms training. They issued us M-1 Carbines, but did not issue us any ammunition. I guess we were suppose to point the weapon and yell bang you’re dead. 😆 However, in the later years of the war, the Air Force guys were a little better equiped – M-16s with ammo, protective vests etc. depending on where stationed in South East Asia. But, still, I don’t think they had any real combat training.
Oh yes! The good old days – we had fun.
Guns but no ammunition? 😯 Why? Did they run out of bullets? 8)
Looks like KM-type training would be much more realistic and practical for the military. I wonder what it would take for them to adopt it as their official training program.
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GiantkillerFor the Army, it’s goiing to take a change in philosophy in how they approach H2H. For instance, in FM 3-25.150, they write:
Striking. Striking is an inefficient way to incapacitate an enemy. Strikes are, however, an important part of an overall fight strategy and can be very effective in manipulating the opponent into unfavorable positions. Striking can be practiced with various types of protective padding such as boxing gloves. Defense can be practiced using reduced force blows. Training should be continuously focused on the realities of fighting.
and
Chokes are the best way to end a fight. They are the most effective way to incapacitate an enemy and, with supervision, are also safe enough to apply in training exactly as on the battlefield.
I’m not sure how they came to this conclusion since there isn’t any supportive material on it.
Well lets remember adding a weapon creates a whole new ball game. I’ve heard \”if you let them get that close you have done something wrong\”, but the Army creed says \”I will engage the enemies of the U.S. in close quarters\” or something along those lines.
I’m sure it needs a revamp but it will take time.
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quote \”Sean_AKrav\:Well lets remember adding a weapon creates a whole new ball game. I’ve heard \”if you let them get that close you have done something wrong\”, but the Army creed says \”I will engage the enemies of the U.S. in close quarters\” or something along those lines.I’m sure it needs a revamp but it will take time.
The thing is if your tasking an army as a police force train em’ for it, give em’ bullets and ROE’s that favor and protect them. In the current situations the convoys and the support units are being attacked. Do they have the training to do the job? The Marines as I understand have the philosphy of Everyone of them is a rifleman. The other services don’t as I understand it, so depending what your job is are they getting like a crash course in tatics of some sort?
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quote \”unstpabl1\:quote \”Sean_AKrav\:Well lets remember adding a weapon creates a whole new ball game. I’ve heard \”if you let them get that close you have done something wrong\”, but the Army creed says \”I will engage the enemies of the U.S. in close quarters\” or something along those lines.I’m sure it needs a revamp but it will take time.
The thing is if your tasking an army as a police force train em’ for it, give em’ bullets and ROE’s that favor and protect them. In the current situations the convoys and the support units are being attacked. Do they have the training to do the job? The Marines as I understand have the philosphy of Everyone of them is a rifleman. The other services don’t as I understand it, so depending what your job is are they getting like a crash course in tatics of some sort?
I think if you are infantry or anything with the chance of getting in combat that you will be ready for combat when/if it comes. There is a guy in my ROTC that was prior service and he has one of the smallest shot groups I’ve ever seen. He even beat our Lt. Colonel.
Thanks to everyone who’s replied in this topic so far – I really appreciate all the different perspectives and advice from civvies and military personnel alike!
I agree that the Marine Corps looks like they have a good H2H program, which would be nice to get qualified in – if I went for another branch such as the Coasties, I’d definately look at doing the Krav Maga Military/LE Instructors course (AFcop – any chance you could shoot me an email about your experiences in doing this? [email protected])
Equally so I understand that H2H is not a primary concern for any of the branches of the military, in terms of marksmanship etc being used on a far more regular basis, but it’s good to see what’s out there.
BradM – your experience in the AF reminds me of what happened when one of my cousin-in-laws went through AF basic training MANY years ago (he’s 72 now!) – the closest they got to any combat training was when they were taken out to a range, handed a pistol, and told to \”fire it somewhere in that direction\”! 😕 😆
In terms of physically prepping myself for whichever service I go for, unfort there isn’t a KM training centre nearby, so I’m just doing intensive gym sessions with some shadowboxing+practicing defenses against imaginary opponents. There’s an MMA class I’ve occasionally gone to, which is good for sparring+groundwork, but at the end of the day the main aim is to be in good shape – after all the DI’s won’t care if I’m God’s gift to H2H if I can’t make the graduating standards of pushups, run times etc!
As for choking an enemy, once you are in a rear naked choke position (standing up) couldn’t you also break his neck by moving back and pushing his head down? That would be faster and probably more realistic in a battle zone. Another thing to consider while fighting an enemy soldier/insurgent on the ground may be that he could carry a knife and use it to stab you while your arms are occupied and tied up, trying to get him in that choke.
This reminds me of KM sentry removal. There is this one exercise where you put a rope around someone’s neck from behind, then turn and hang him on your back. Good old training times! 😀
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Giantkiller
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