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Re: Moni/CKM
quote wiccaman:Hi AllIt’s been a while since I posted on these boards. I moved to the back of beyond so it’s taken a while to get the internet back (and in view of recent events, moving out of London may have proved a very effective self defence strategy). I apologise if I’m saying something that’s already old news. I haven’t been able to check all that’s been posted in the last few years. I’m just pleasantly surprised that my log-in still works.
Anyway to get to the point:
I’ll stay out of the politics re Moni’s bona fides. I can however comment on his teaching methods/CKM system.
The Krav group I’m associated with did have some dealings with Moni and for a while it looked like we might go down the CKM route. For various reasons that’s gone by the wayside. I did however have an opportunity to train with Moni.
Firstly, as an instructor he’s very charismatic and presents his concepts well. As to the style itself however I’m not sure it would be immediately recognizable to most on this board as Krav. Now I’m all into the ‘adopt what works for you, abandon what doesn’t’ approach. That’s one of the many reasons I love Krav. Moni’s style is very different from what you might be used to. Some of the basics are the same but then again it’s only what you’d expect from any decent self defence system; there aren’t that many ways to efficiently use your bodies natural weapons.
The main difference is in the actual self defence techniques. Friends who are into Aikido say a lot of the moves were familiar to them. Apart from watching “Under Siege” about a thousand times i have no real experience of Aikido so can’t comment personally on that. However I did find that a lot of the moves were a little over complicated for a simple minded soul like myself. There was a lot of getting of line and using the attackers momentum etc. The style seems a bit more ‘graceful’ than the KM I’m used to. it certainly looks better (in a wow factor sense) but I’m not sure that’s a good test for effectiveness.
Most of the techniques required a higher skill level than you’d need for the KM equivalent. I think you’d have to practice a lot longer in CKM to achieve the same level of achievement than you’d get in KM in a much shorter time. I think there was also a lot more that could go wrong with the techniques than in the ‘original’ KM equivalent.
Essentially CKM seemed to break the KISS rule that is pretty much writ in stone as far as I’m concerned.
Is it likely to be as effective on the street for a ‘normal’ person? I’d say a definite ‘no’. the techniques were hard enough to pull off in a classroom setting. I have severe doubts about whether I’d be able to rise/sink to the level required to make them work when i was pumped full of adrenaline and ****ing myself.
The defences against a knife attack are quite effective if you get them right; but they do depend a lot on getting you positioning spot on and your timing near perfect.
On the positive side, CKM has an interesting approach to gun disarms. They rely on very quick (almost ‘slight of hand’) to snatch the weapon away from the attacker. There’s no simultaneous counter attack. That makes it quicker of course but you’re still left with a fully functioning attacker. No problem if you’ve now got a working firearm; but maybe not so handy if (as is likely to be the case in the UK) the weapon is a replica or a re-activated blank firer that may take your hand off if you use it. You’ve now got to get busy with someone who’s p***ed off with you and knows he’s going to have to switch to his ‘A’ game on you. If you were in a military situation though where you know the weapon is real and your enemy is wearing body armour/other protection it may well be worth learning. Athough in that situation you’d probably have a weapon of your own or a mate who could shoot the other guy for you.
So in summary, although I’ve borrowed a few techniques fro my toolkit, CKM generally is not for me. A very skilled and committed martial artist could no doubt get to the requisite level to make the techniques work for them a significant percentage of the time but even if they did I’m not sure, in terms of effectiveness, the end result would be any better than you’d get with the equivalent KM move in regard to survivability. You would look flashier on any CCTV footage though. As i’d always want the authorities to think I was an average citizen who just managed to land a lucky blow (or 5) though I’m not sure I’d want that.
Regards
Al
That sounds almost exactly like my experience in testing out ckm – it violates the KISS principle that is at the heart of Krav Maga.
Re: Moni/CKM
quote :Cjs Dad, I don’t know if your familiar with the ruling of the Israeli courts when certain factions were trying to patent the term Krav Maga. They ruled that Krav Maga was a generic term for traditional Israeli self defense and its offshots. Though it may not look like the Krav that is familiar to you CKM is a form of Krav. I would be surprised if the Krav you studied (and Ive been reading you are quite good at) is the original form of Krav created by Imi or his early followers. The art grows and encompasses and overlaps other forms.1. I’m extremely familiar with it
2. Thank you for the kind words
3. I’m actually familiar with several different KM versions including instructor levels in Hagganah and Kapop complete with certifications directly from Israel.
4. I was inducted into the Blackbelt Hall of Fame as a Living Legend for my work with Law Enforcement.Now I’m not tooting my own horn, and I could go on with my various other credentials, awards, ranks etc but I’m trying to make a point. And that is those of us who have spent our entire lives working our asses off learning, achieving and being recognized for those achievements take it very personally when someone straight up bull****s about who they are and what they have done.
So I’m sorry if I find it hard to cut the guy some slack, because he’s not Nir, not Amir.
To paraphrase Jeremy Stafford “just because the guy was a cook in the Israeli Army and served Imi a plate of food once in the chow line doesn’t make him an expert in Krav Maga”
And don’t even get Nir going on him, that’s a long phone call.
Those guys are the documented and decorated war heros who fought for their country, who teach their elite military and law enforcement.
That’s who has the credibility, that’s who I have the respect for, that’s who I am honored to call friend.
OK Rant Off
Re: Moni/CKM
Sorry Sean but the Living legend thing cracks me up. Not that you were awarded it or anything but that someone thought of calling it that. Do you have to give it back when you pass:beer:
Re: Moni/CKM
quote unstpabl1:Sorry Sean but the Living legend thing cracks me up. Not that you were awarded it or anything but that someone thought of calling it that. Do you have to give it back when you pass:beer:eh it sits in a box on a shelf in the garage with the other stuff gathering dust. I just trot it out every once and a while to remind people I have a frame of referance for what I’m talking about.
Re: Moni/CKM
quote CJs Dad:eh it sits in a box on a shelf in the garage with the other stuff gathering dust. I just trot it out every once and a while to remind people I have a frame of referance for what I’m talking about.Wife wouldn’t let you keep it in the house eh?:wav: Probably shouldn’t tease you like this….I live too close and am easy to find
Re: Moni/CKM
“I’ve been to Wayne Gretzky’s house. The man has 5 MVP trophies. You know where they are? They’re in the @#$%ing garage!” – Denis Leary on women controlling interior design… 😀
(fwiw, I think he ended up with 9 mvps… )
Re: Moni/CKM
quote Don:“I’ve been to Wayne Gretzky’s house. The man has 5 MVP trophies. You know where they are? They’re in the @#$%ing garage!” – Denis Leary on women controlling interior design… 😀(fwiw, I think he ended up with 9 mvps… )
rofl2:beer:
Re: Moni/CKM
See,
The problem with the whole court case is that some people took the liberty to call their form of Judo and other systems Krav Maga. Those who know martial arts and have studied enough of them, Sean would certainly fall into that category, know Judo and Jiu Jitsu when we see it.
The ridiculous claims and lies that Moni has told only cause those of us who view his “Krav Maga” skeptically to shake our heads. Again Krav Maga is a specific system with a specific methodology and these things can’t be denied.
Organizational beefs aside the integrity of the CKM can and should be examined and scrutinized as much as any other branch of the tree. CKM is not taught on any official capacity to any Israeli unit.
Re: Moni/CKM
quote Psyops:Krav Maga is a specific system with a specific methodology and these things can’t be denied.Exactly my point you can’t teach one thing and call it something else just because the names popular and you think you”ll get more students that way.
Re: Moni/CKM
Hello all…
I am new to KM (about 8 months), but I am not new to the world and I have been known to have an opinion or two…
I do not know squat about the differences between various versions of KM, but I would very much like to know- maybe I will post that question later…
But, as far as integrity… anyone who ‘pads’ a resume should not be hired, and should be fired immediately upon discovery- plain and simple. Not everyone exaggerates themselves. There may be many who do, but then that is only indicative of our world today- those with integrity and honor, and those without.
On the military side- I have no idea how IDF works. However, I am a bit familiar with the US military. When something is classified, it is classified for the legal benefit of our country. There are very specific reasons when something is classified and that list is short. Various missions and operations are classified, but I have never even heard of a US military member’s individual record being classified. I am dubious to any claims that their records are classified.
Also on the US military side- any ‘career’ military will tell you integrity is a very serious thing. Claiming or simply alluding to any military status or decoration not earned is enough to destroy a career- and in some cases put you in jail! I am quite sure IDF is very similar here.
As far as that goes- I can say with complete honesty I have NEVER lost a sparring match…. But then, In the interest of not exaggerating, I have also not actually been in any sparring matches either… So if someone claimed to have never lost a match, but then you found out later he has never even been in one, what does that do to anything else he might have to say to you? If he is not forever tainted after that, then I suggest a serious self-check.
I have nothing to say about CKM as a system. I do not know enough about any particular discipline to have an educated opinion on that subject.
However, I can say with authority I have serious reservations about complex systems or arts. I have known several black belts in different arts who got their butts handed to them in the real world. The bad guy is not going to follow the rules of your particular art for you to play with. I have seen personally a black belt in Karate who owned a dojo (I have been to it) get popped once in the face as soon as he dropped down into his “billy bad-ass” stance and he was down for the count. He started that fight too, and I believe that was a violation of his Karate creed.
I love Aikido- I think it is very graceful and you can apply a serious hurting to someone while it looks to all the camcorders like you are just ‘standing there’. However, it is very complicated with a lot of fine muscle memory, and it just does not always work on the streets. A belligerent is not going to allow you the time, or hand you his arm for an armbar takedown like in the dojo. Trying to get an uncooperative large drunk into a wrist lock is just not going to happen. I love watching Steven Segal on screen but I am not sure even he could do it in real life. I have never met him, but I have seen the other side very many times.
So, integrity and honor does matter- at least to some people. And, complex arts do not always work in the real world. KISS works!
“No groin, no Krav Maga”.
Stay safe, and go home!
Re: Moni/CKM
quote CJs Dad:Actually, its that I’m not left handed 🙂 :abx:“I also am not left-handed”
“Incon-th-eivable”
BWAHAHAHAAHA!!!
We have this on DVD!!!
Re: Moni/CKM
quote Don:“I’ve been to Wayne Gretzky’s house. The man has 5 MVP trophies. You know where they are? They’re in the @#$%ing garage!” – Denis Leary on women controlling interior design… 😀(fwiw, I think he ended up with 9 mvps… )
Don, you’ll notice how the elusive and wise CJ’s Dad avoided this part of the conversation. This is a part of self defense rarely taught in dojo’s. Self protection in the home
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