My Summer time vow

[aviatordave]

Re: My Summer time vow

Jdawgmcb – question for you – what are the competitions in high school level powerlifting like? Which lifts are used? Are they OL, or the more common bench/squat/deadlift?

And how much do the leaders typically lift in the different events?

We didn’t have powerlifting when I was in school. Football, Basketball, and track was about it. Now they have powerlifting, lacrosse, hockey, and several other sports in the districts around me – a lot of opportunities we didn’t have.

[aviatordave]

Re: My Summer time vow

quote Peterako:

I have read somewhere(perhaps from a different forum, if not from this one) that lifting weights and building muscle becomes a bit counteractive concerning Krav. The people having the discussion noticed it decreased flexibility as well as agility, which are both important aspects of the self-defense style.

Just something to think about. It is also completely possible that individuals will react to muscle gain much differently. However, I’m sure I would prefer a leaner, more agile body than rather pack the pounds into one that is bigger yet slower.

There are a lot of misconceptions in that writeup. First of all, big muscles are like bio-armor. Secondly, it takes lots of fast-twitch muscles to lift heavy loads. And fast-twitch muscles give power and speed.

Sure, there are always guys like a friend of mine – he weighs 300+ pounds and can’t do one pull-up, nor bend his elbow more than about 20 degrees past 90 because his biceps and forearms are so freaking huge. He’s fat as hell. But he warms up on the bench with 315. His squat warmup is with 405. He does incline bench and shoulder press with 225, I have no idea what his maxes are in those. He doesn’t compete anymore, but he’s easily the strongest guy in the gym. Nobody would describe him as agile or quick.

I kinda agree with the reverse on some levels – the endurance conditioning for Krav or boxing or MMA will be counterproductive to body building, but the strength increases from something like powerlifting won’t be counterproductive to Krav.

However – think of olympic men gymnasts, or sprinters, or any of the other power/speed type track events (besides long distance runners which tend to be legs and lungs). They typically have very powerful upper body, lower body, and core strength. It’s entirely possible to be extremely strong, fast, AND agile.

[peterako]

Re: My Summer time vow

quote AviatorDave:

There are a lot of misconceptions in that writeup. First of all, big muscles are like bio-armor. Secondly, it takes lots of fast-twitch muscles to lift heavy loads. And fast-twitch muscles give power and speed.

Sure, there are always guys like a friend of mine – he weighs 300+ pounds and can’t do one pull-up, nor bend his elbow more than about 20 degrees past 90 because his biceps and forearms are so freaking huge. He’s fat as hell. But he warms up on the bench with 315. His squat warmup is with 405. He does incline bench and shoulder press with 225, I have no idea what his maxes are in those. He doesn’t compete anymore, but he’s easily the strongest guy in the gym. Nobody would describe him as agile or quick.

I kinda agree with the reverse on some levels – the endurance conditioning for Krav or boxing or MMA will be counterproductive to body building, but the strength increases from something like powerlifting won’t be counterproductive to Krav.

However – think of olympic men gymnasts, or sprinters, or any of the other power/speed type track events (besides long distance runners which tend to be legs and lungs). They typically have very powerful upper body, lower body, and core strength. It’s entirely possible to be extremely strong, fast, AND agile.

I understand what you mean, and I agree, but I had the idea that jdawg was just trying to build up as much mass as possible. Strong atheletes, using your Olympic reference, have a good balance and size to their muscles, ones that suit their body.

Jdawg said:

quote jdawg:

im on a strict bodybuilding diet…eggs, tuna, oatmeal, etc…no fatty foods…3000-3500 calories a day

I get the impression that he’s going straight up for mass. More weight, which will include more fat as well. This goal, trying to “get huge”, is one that would have some negative effects which would interfere with Krav.

That’s where I was coming from. However, I’m not at all sure whether or not this is jdawg’s goal, and my initial impression may be entirely wrong.

Aside from jdawg, would you think this type of bodybuilding to be counterproductive to Krav, Dave?

[aviatordave]

Re: My Summer time vow

quote Peterako:

I understand what you mean, and I agree, but I had the idea that jdawg was just trying to build up as much mass as possible. Strong atheletes, using your Olympic reference, have a good balance and size to their muscles, ones that suit their body.

Jdawg said:

I get the impression that he’s going straight up for mass. More weight, which will include more fat as well. This goal, trying to “get huge”, is one that would have some negative effects which would interfere with Krav.

That’s where I was coming from. However, I’m not at all sure whether or not this is jdawg’s goal, and my initial impression may be entirely wrong.

Aside from jdawg, would you think this type of bodybuilding to be counterproductive to Krav, Dave?

I’m too new at Krav to know. But I do have at least some direct evidence – I’ve trained with 3 different instructors where I started learning KM. One of them is about my size – 6′, 175-180 lbs, 15% body fat. One is a few inches shorter, but probably 200 lbs and 15% bf. But the third one is a beast. He’s also about 6′ tall, but I’d put him at more like 210 and 10% bf. It’s not like he’s a body builder (most of which are on the short side, btw), but put it this way – take anyone with advanced KM skills. Now give him 100% more strength and 50% more lean muscle mass. Not only we he be able to inflict a lot more damage, but it may also serve as a deterrent to someone starting something with him in the first place.

[aviatordave]

Re: My Summer time vow

And remember, when you look at pro-bodybuilders, bear in mind that they are all using steroids. All of them, without exception. And lots of steroids. If you want proof, look at the natural bodybuilding leagues where they do testing. The winners of those contests wouldn’t even be competitive in the non-tested leagues. I don’t care how hard you train, you’re not going to get so huge that it limits your speed and agility potential without steroids. Even many of the “natural” professionals use them. I think they can compete in the natural divisions if they have been off the gear for 6 months, and can compete in the lifetime natural divisions if it’s been a year or maybe 18 months. There was a news article about a natural event, I think in Amsterdam, and officials decided to do an unannounced drug test. Nearly every competitor quickly left the event before it even began. Or look at Mr. Universe from back in the 50s before steroid use was so prevalent. You’d never think any of them would have restricted mobility or agility, because they’re just not that big.

So unless you’re using steroids (and you’re nuts if you do), it’s impossible to get so big that it would be detrimental to your KM abilities.

[jdawgmcb]

Re: My Summer time vow

quote AviatorDave:

Jdawgmcb – question for you – what are the competitions in high school level powerlifting like? Which lifts are used? Are they OL, or the more common bench/squat/deadlift?

And how much do the leaders typically lift in the different events?

We didn’t have powerlifting when I was in school. Football, Basketball, and track was about it. Now they have powerlifting, lacrosse, hockey, and several other sports in the districts around me – a lot of opportunities we didn’t have.

We used the traditional weight groups…98,114,123,132,148,etc to unlimited and the three lifts were bench squat and deadlift…usually if you were over 148 lbs a 1000 core was pretty good for the state level.

[peterako]

Re: My Summer time vow

quote AviatorDave:

And remember, when you look at pro-bodybuilders, bear in mind that they are all using steroids. All of them, without exception. And lots of steroids. If you want proof, look at the natural bodybuilding leagues where they do testing. The winners of those contests wouldn’t even be competitive in the non-tested leagues. I don’t care how hard you train, you’re not going to get so huge that it limits your speed and agility potential without steroids. Even many of the “natural” professionals use them. I think they can compete in the natural divisions if they have been off the gear for 6 months, and can compete in the lifetime natural divisions if it’s been a year or maybe 18 months. There was a news article about a natural event, I think in Amsterdam, and officials decided to do an unannounced drug test. Nearly every competitor quickly left the event before it even began. Or look at Mr. Universe from back in the 50s before steroid use was so prevalent. You’d never think any of them would have restricted mobility or agility, because they’re just not that big.

So unless you’re using steroids (and you’re nuts if you do), it’s impossible to get so big that it would be detrimental to your KM abilities.

Yes, that’s a very good point.

Thanks for bringing a more realistic viewpoint here. :):

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