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So I finally went for a trial class and often times, itís hard to get the true sense of something with just one class, so I would like the input of those that do Krav.
The class started out with 15 minutes of warm-up and stretching. Then I was taken aside being that I was the only one doing the class for the first time and one of the instructors (there were two present that day) showed me the basics: passive stance, fighting stance, 8-point footwork, and the jab-cross-hook combo. One thing that I found unusual was a comment made by the instructor. She told me that the reason they have a passive stance is because if she was in a fighting stance, no one would attack her. Having seen many fights myself, I always noticed the opposite; as soon as someone takes an aggressive posture, it becomes an invitation for the other to fight. Secondly, isnít it supposed to be desired to NOT be attacked? Maybe itís just her personality that she likes to fight and didnít truly mean that I should encourage attackers to go after me.
After practicing the combos and footwork, I was allowed to join the rest of the class. At this point, we practiced roundhouse kicks. While doing the kicks, both instructors approached me to tell me that I needed to pivot my ground foot more, to which I proceeded to tell them that my shoes didnít allow for a smooth turn and asked for advice. They just walked away without helping me.
The last 10 minutes of class ended with a front choke defense. They instructed us to use a certain combination for the defense: pluck, groin kick, hammer fist to the clavicle. When I went to choke my partner, I was stopped because I was pushing my partner while choking and supposedly, I wasnít supposed to push her because it throws her off balance and thus, canít do the groin kick. Then, when I went for a static choke, I was once again told I was doing it wrong because I kept one foot in front of the other, which protected the groin area, instead of having my feet parallel and apart, and that once again hindered her groin kick. It seems to me the way the instructors had me attacking is extremely unlikely, and I found it unusual that they would teach us a defense against a very specific and unlikely type of attack. The class ended there and then one of the instructors took me aside to explain the price structure for the school.
Was my experience typical?
Sorry your experience was not so great. Most Krav instructors will show you how to overcome the differences in stance made by the attacker and also show you how the plucking defense can still be effective when being pushed. They may be new instructors to the system, that i don’t know. I do know that the combative striking done prior in class should have directly related to the self-defense being taught. I dont see round kicks fitting into choke from the front fitting in so well. Not that it can’t be taught in that class but not so much emphasis that you say. Well don’t let this completely discourage you, good KM is out there. Mark KM Hammond La
One thing that I found unusual was a comment made by the instructor. She told me that the reason they have a passive stance is because if she was in a fighting stance, no one would attack her. Having seen many fights myself, I always noticed the opposite; as soon as someone takes an aggressive posture, it becomes an invitation for the other to fight. Secondly, isnít it supposed to be desired to NOT be attacked? Maybe itís just her personality that she likes to fight and didnít truly mean that I should encourage attackers to go after me.
_______________________________I would be willing to guess that this is a mis-understanding. We do practice from a passive stance often. This is because most of us tend to not be in a fighting stance all that often during the day. We need to see how the things we train in will work from a passive stance as well as a fighting stance.
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The last 10 minutes of class ended with a front choke defense. They instructed us to use a certain combination for the defense: pluck, groin kick, hammer fist to the clavicle. When I went to choke my partner, I was stopped because I was pushing my partner while choking and supposedly, I wasnít supposed to push her because it throws her off balance and thus, canít do the groin kick. Then, when I went for a static choke, I was once again told I was doing it wrong because I kept one foot in front of the other, which protected the groin area, instead of having my feet parallel and apart, and that once again hindered her groin kick. It seems to me the way the instructors had me attacking is extremely unlikely, and I found it unusual that they would teach us a defense against a very specific and unlikely type of attack. The class ended there and then one of the instructors took me aside to explain the price structure for the school.
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Again, Im guessing a mis-understanding. Sure the things you mentioned are great to prevent the counter being taught. However, we all need a starting point to begin the education. Small success added up over time becomes a big success. As far as the front choke with a push, we do have a technique for that, and honestly, it will work great against a static choke as well. It will also deal with the stance you chose to protect your groin while doing the static choke. In all honesty, the defense against a static choke even with you protecting your groin will work so long as the principles are followed.
In a classroom its always easy to point out counters to the techniques. Fact is that under stress it is all different. Training will give you an advantage.
This reminds me of an experience I had training with someone even newer than myself. It was really tough to practice defenses, because she kept saying, \”But in real life, I’d be….\” (usually there’d be some arm-flailing and whatnot) and didn’t give me much of a chance. I agree with the concept of building on small successes. Practice under ideal conditions first, and get it down, then deal with variations.
Good technique is all about baby steps. There is some reality to what you are saying, but it is hard for your partner to learn techniques and take those baby steps if you are constantly anticipating and second guessing the system. As far as the round kicks…the instructors tried to teach you and give you instriction and you again second guessed them. What advise were you expecting \”pivot your foot more\”…\”how\”…\”pivot it.\”? I don’t mean to be sarcastic here, but you need to stop second guessing your instructors. Krav Maga can do great things for you if you let it. Don’t get frusterated or discouraged. Keep it up and you will see what I am talking about.
Jburtonpdx wrote: \”We do practice from a passive stance often. This is because most of us tend to not be in a fighting stance all that often during the day. We need to see how the things we train in will work from a passive stance as well as a fighting stance.\”
The instructor showed me the passive stance as being legs parallel, shoulder width appart and arms to the side and made me take that stance as well. Is this passive stance what everyone is expected to learn? Because I never stand like that naturally.
Jburtonpdx wrote: \”As far as the front choke with a push, we do have a technique for that, and honestly, it will work great against a static choke as well.\”
Why not teach that right away? Doesn’t it bother anyone that they are expected to defend against an unrealistic attack?
curious, first of all, you are learning SELF DEFENSE, which by definition means that someone else gets to go first. you are responding to an attack already in progress. the passive stance is not an actual ‘stance’ but a lack of a stance. its how you normally stand when not expecting anything in particular. this is not only more realistic, but will show that KM works when its most important, in a position of disadvantage, or when you are late.
you need to have a little patience. it was your first class and im guessing there were other beginners in there as well. you need to learn the basics first. not everything can be taught in one class. choke from the front is a basic technique that gives beginners a sense of what KM is about and how useful it can be. the choke with a push IS a different technique and DOES work in place as well. why not learn it right away? because its not reflexive – it has to be learned and practiced. unlike the choke/push, the pluck turns your body’s natural reaction (grabbing the hands around your throat) into a something more effective. im willing to bet your instructor mentioned that but you were probably too wrapped up in attacking in a way that screwed your partners chance of executing an effective techinque against you.
give the system a chance or move on to something else that will teach you all you need to know in an hour.
Again, Patience. Stop second guessing the system. Saying that something is unrealistic implys that you know better than your instructors. We both know that is simply not true. Trust their knowledge, baby steps, baby steps, baby steps. There are a ton of techniques to learn and each one builds on another. You need to learn choke from the front so that you can learn choke on the ground, and hair grabs and all the stuff that you don’t have the first clue about now. Be patient, trust your instructors, don’t give up keep training, and thank us later.
Yes, patience. You can’t expect to learn everything at once. There are dozens of different techniques and you need to take it step by step.
KM is teaching self-defense. They always tell us that the difference between self-defense and a fight is that in a fight you know that you are fighting, in self-defense you are surprised and only have time to react. You are at a disadvantage and have to fight out of that position of disadvantage.
That’s the reason for the passive stance. If you are attacked and don’t see it coming, you won’t have time to get into a fighting stance.
As for the choke, the reason the instructor didn’t want you to push is that you will have to do a different technique for that situation. At that moment in time, you were working on another technique, the one for a choke standing in place. I’m not sure why you are saying a choke without a push is unrealistic, it could happen and so that was the technique for it. There is a variation in which you can pluck with one hand and punch with the other in case you are unable to do the groin kick, but it seems as though most attackers would stand squared up to the person they are choking and not be in a type of sideways stance with their leg blocking their groin.
As I’ve mentioned on the other thread, round kicks are a good tool to have. They’ll take some time to learn, that’s why they work on them a lot in LV1.
Again, deep breath, patience, even in BJJ you learn one move at a time and are not supposed to resist at first, so that your partner can learn when and from what position to do a certain move. If you stick with KM, in time, you’ll learn all you need to know.
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GiantkillerSeveral things:
A passive stance is anything other than a full on fighting stance. To me this is anything from leaning against a wall with the legs crossed, arms folded, hands in the pockets or whatever. It is not a specific stance. Unfortunatly my instructors don’t seem to realize this but hey, I do and that is what counts. To answer your question:
\”The instructor showed me the passive stance as being legs parallel, shoulder width appart and arms to the side and made me take that stance as well. Is this passive stance what everyone is expected to learn? Because I never stand like that naturally. \”
I learned the same silly stance. I can see the value in using it from a defensive position, but attacking from that particular stance is unatural and unlikely.
People replies here about learning the techniques step by step are right on. It is a progession. It is also what makes Krav more of a martial \”art\” – what you asked about in your first thread. It is all about learning and perfecting techniques level by level. Purely physical. Unfortunatly this gets in the way for learning self defense, but you will get excellent physical tools added to your arsenal.
As for the comment about instructors always knowing better…that’s a laugh, had me in stiches. My instructors are really nice people and superb athletes, but they don’t know the first thing about self defense, and I mean that litterally. I don’t care, because *I* know about self defense, and am able to properly incorportate what I learn at Krav into my overal arsenal. I am not there purely to learn self defense, I am there to learn certain physical tools, which is what Krav focuses on. That is also what my instructors know a hell of a lot more than I do about as well. Self defense, as I went on about in my first few posts in your first thread is all about behaviour and strategy.
I think it is really good to question instructors in general, it tests them, and gets you thinking. It also helps you understand what you are learning, more often than not they have a good answer for you. It also shows that you are able to think for yourself. I don’t know much about the training process for instructors, but the requierments seems purely physical. I do not beleived they are trained in the statistics of fighting, or in human nature and behavioural patterns of fighting. Mine certainly are not. The strengths of Krav are in the physical, particulary striking tools. The rest, for the most part is junk. You are on the right track to understanding self defense. Once you undertand it, you can get more out of Krav by recongizing the good stuff and holding on to it, and discarding the bad stuff.
kpalena wrote: ìStop second guessing the system.î
Iím not trying to second guess the system. Iím trying to understand it 1) before putting in a lot of money into it (which I donít have as a full-time university student) and 2) while I am learning it if I do sign up.
I also want to evaluate the instructors at the particular school I checked out because it was mentioned in another thread that the quality of the learning depends on the instructors and that some are better than others.
Giant Killer wrote: ìI’m not sure why you are saying a choke without a push is unrealistic, it could happen and so that was the technique for it.î
I have been choked in the past by someone with the intent of harming me. I was shaken and pushed back until I tripped. The way I choked my partner in the trial class was without the speed and ferocity I faced.
Iíll put it this way, Giant Killer. Imagine you are the bad guy. You really want to hurt somebody, perhaps even kill them, and you decide to choke them. How would you do it?
Some thoughts on the passive stance…. no, it’s not really \”natural.\” At least, not before learning Krav. In the same way that I no longer walk hunched over with my eyes on my feet, I don’t stand in line (or whatever) the same way. Actually, as I’ve thought about this, I think my natural \”standing around\” stance now is not too far from the passive stance. It’s really easy to go from passive stance to fighting stance. Not so easy to go from lounging against a wall, hands in pockets, to fighting stance.
Remember, part of self defense is about situational awareness.
Funny, SS, for a guy who seems to know so much, you’d think you would know the difference between self defense and self protection. One is reactive. One is proactive. The things you describe here are related to self protection. Behavior, psychology, pre-contact cues, line-up punching, tactics, pattern interrupts, action triggers, etc. are not what KM focuses on–it’s a self defense system, and self defense is something KM does very well. I don’t see claims that profess it’s anything other than that.
On a side note, I don’t like the term \”passive stance\”. To me, \”passive\” has a negative connotation, as it relates to what we do, that we shouldn’t look to perpetuate, and \”stance\” is a misnomer (it’s not really a stance.) I prefer to simply say neutral.
Wow, Strictly Street and Curious, it sounds like you have just had instructors that haven’t been at it very long. Learning the krav system with newer instructors, to me, is still better than learning some showy eastern martial art from a grand master. You’ll still have more self defense skills for the real world.
Curious, others have made good points in this forum. Passive stance is any way you happen to be when surprised by an attack. looking down, leaning, picking your nose….it is all good. I never tell someone how to be an attacker. They may be doing something that is totally crazy (choking with their legs crossed) but there is always a chance the the bad guy will do something unexpected. Learn principles, not techniques. If you learn 1000 defenses you’ll be attacked by number 1001 (a John W. quote).
Street, to come on to Krav’s forum and say it is mostly junk is just disrespectful. You sound like an expert and should know better. If you have instructors that you are better than, good for you. You are in the vast minority. I would think if you learned from Darren Levine, John Whitman or Michael M., you would think very little of Krav is \”junk\”. I’ve seen a lot of systems and can assure you that Krav, the way it is meant to be learned, is the best street self defense available for the average person.
I didn’t mean to say Krav is mostly junk. I don’t think it is and I not only enjoy it, but see it madatory training for me to be a complete fighter. I actually say the physical stuff is excellent, and that Krav is mostly physical. This should be interpreted as Krav is mostly good. What is \”junk\” is subjective to the individual student. OldKravDude, you sound like a better instructor than most. The fact that you realise principles are more valuable than individual techniques is something I rarely see in instructors. My instructors have only been doing Krav a few years, and their backgrounds are purely athletic. That is reflected in the way they teach. They teach Krav like a martial art, exactly like one. I agree with you about Krav vs eatern MA.
Where I feel KM lacks is in the delivery of the techniques. Ryan seems to agree with me that KM teaches physical, but not the pre-physical stuff. We disagree on the definitions of self defense and self protection, that is all. But I do hope we can agree that having great techniques is of limited value if you don’t have knowledge on when or how to deliver them. I see self-defense as having 4 general phases (1) avoidance and awareness (this is the proactive stuff) (2) verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to physical (3) physical (4) aftermath.
Krav focuses on (3). To an extent the first is common sense. The second is the delivery system for (3). This is were you size up the situation and move to a more strategic postion relative to your attackers and the surroundings. While doing this you adopt a stance that lets you protect yourself and strike premtively. The thing here is to adopt this stance without letting the attcker realize it. Let their guard drop and ego rise, it is all to your advantge. It is also the time when defusing tactics can be applied. The 4th phase is dealing with the law, personal emotions and injury.
I wish KM taught (2) and let us pratice all the physical stuff in situations where at least the 2nd phase is addressed. In 100% of situations (3) depends on (2). This is someting most people, instructors included seem to know little about. Maybe that is why it is ignored.
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