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Street, I am impressed with your response and I thank you. Too many people on this forum forget to talk to each other like adults. I was offended by your comment about junk but tried to give a calm response.
I must say that my original Krav instructors (Darren, Michael, John, Marni, Jarrett, etc) were much better than me with awareness, seeing problems and heading them off, etc. These are very valid and people should go out of their way to learn these things. I guess, as far as I am concerned, I have a student for maybe two classes a week for a total of two hours. I want to teach as much krav as possible in that time to have them be able to survive an attack. This is not only physical – how to fight, the techniques for getting out of chokes, etc. but about attitude in a life or death situation (being aggressive, never stopping, continuing to fight no matter how tired, hurt, etc.) In my mind I would hope they would read about the other parts and go to seminars, etc. because my time with them is so limited.
Again, thanks for the positive response!!
street: lemme get this straight, you are saying 100% of physical self defense situations depend on \”verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to\” it? what about gun in your face from the guy you didnt see while you were walking to your car (yes, i can already hear you yelling number 1!, number 1! – sometimes avoidance and awareness are impossible, i hate to break it to you) i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.
im glad you have all ‘situations’ broken down so neatly for yourself. unfortunately it doesnt always work out that way. KM is for when the s**t hits the fan – for whatever reason. your instructors are there to teach you the tools to help you walk away from it when it does.
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quote \”dkolb\:street: lemme get this straight, you are saying 100% of physical self defense situations depend on \”verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to\” it? what about gun in your face from the guy you didnt see while you were walking to your car (yes, i can already hear you yelling number 1!, number 1! – sometimes avoidance and awareness are impossible, i hate to break it to you) i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.im glad you have all ‘situations’ broken down so neatly for yourself. unfortunately it doesnt always work out that way. KM is for when the s**t hits the fan – for whatever reason. your instructors are there to teach you the tools to help you walk away from it when it does.
I know everything can’t be avoided. Phase (2) is not only verbal/behavioural. It is everything from the time you are targeted as a victim to the time you physcially retaliate. Ambush attacks, sucker punches or whatever are not going to have verbal warnings signs. I like your example with the gun. It is a realistic scenario. Lets look at it in detail. It is not wise to immediatly retaliate physically. The situation needs to be assessed. Is it a cop pointing the gun at you (mistaking you for someone else)? Is it a thug with buddies around who will take you out? Understand your situation before committing to a physical retaliation. For example, calmly raising your hands SLOWLY is a defensive action that will not alarm the attacker. This \”scared-like\” action will make you seem passive and victim-like to the attacker. His guard will drop as he is not expecting a fight. At the same time, your hands have just been strategically placed closer to the gun ready for a disarm. This only takes a couple seconds and lets you asses the situation while gaining the tactical edge for the physical stage.
I actually agree with DK and SS. I think where SS is missing the point is, KM is NOT a self protection system–in my opinion. KM is about performing from positions of extreme disadvantage. I agree that behavioral delivery systems (fence, passive stance, etc.), from a self protection standpoint, are vastly important. However, even monkeys fall out of trees, and that’s what KM is about–when the proactive/protection side fails.
Maybe we’re focusing too much on semantics, but I believe that fighting, self defense, and self protection are different things.
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quote \”dkolb\:i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.I forgot to comment on this example. Since the attack is not only an ambush, but immediatly and continually physical (and life threatening) you gotta go straight into a physical defense. Nothing much to lose. It is however unlikely. No principle or strategies, no particular technique will save you, just gut instinct fighinting back. Most people (like you) don’t seem to realize that most situation have a pre-contact phase that lets you defuse and strategize the best defense. Going straight to physical in your gun example is something I am afraid too many people might try, or think is the best option.
Again, this is a pretty calm, rational discussion and that’s great.
Street, I guess you are just coming from a totally different perspective – and that doesn’t make you wrong. Look at Krav’s history. It is all about Israel and how many enemies they have. It is all about reacting right away with the thought of not stopping until the other guy is down and done. It is the way their country thinks and the way Krav looks at problems. They have to think aggressively, that is why they are still a country.
The handgun topic is a good example. When Darren taught us he had one of us in front of the class to give us all a good lesson. He said there is no way that you know the difference between (he would stick the gun in the students face) \”give me your money\” AND (again gun raised and stuck in students face) \”boom\”. How do you know this guy isn’t going to raise his gun and pull the trigger before you can assess or question. The whole point was REACT. Soon after this lesson I heard of a Columbus firefighter’s son who was shot and killed just like that, a guy stuck a gun in his face and immediately pulled the trigger. Krav is all about reaction. React quick and go until one of you is unconscious. This is their philosophy. This is their history.
My answer is it’s an Israeli mindset. Nothing wrong with your thoughts or questions. Doesn’t make us right and you wrong…..this is just the way it is.
I like where this discussion is going (although we are a bit off topic). I understand the mind set behind KM, and I expressed that in my first posts in the thread (Is KM a MA?) a few weeks back. My concern was that this mindset might not be the most ideal or appropriate one for the average citizen in the average situation. We all agree KM is a \”worst case scenario\” fighting/SD system. My opinion is that being prepared to deal with a \”worst case scenario\” fight does not really help prepare you for the typical situation you are likely to deal with on a day to day basis. I think it is better to start off not only being more all-round, but also is learning to defend against common situations rather than the least likely extreme ones. Personally, I want both, it is just a matter of which order to learn it.
Again, all subjective, but KM (and some people on this forum) advertises itself as being more all-round/complete and applicable to the avergae citizen than I think it really is. It is more specialized, and at that, I think the best thing out there for what it does. But it needs supplementation for anyone that wants to be truly complete. My first 3 posts on the forum outline how I see KM as a system.
Great posts guys, and keep them coming as they are interesting.
As for myself, I concluded that Krav is not what I was looking for. I gave it a chance and went to a trial class, but I see that it wasn’t good quality instruction, so they will not get my money or time. As well, KM seems to be lacking a lot based on this recent discussion and Strictly Street’s first post on my first thread, and I see now that he’s not the only one that see this, so I know that his opinion is not based on his particular school, but on the system as a whole.
Ryan, I never heard of \”self-defense\” and \”self-protection\” being two seperate things. After reading your post, I even decided to look it up and the general concensus, as well as it is described on wikipedia, they are the same thing, but with different words used. The marketing for Krav Maga is certainly misleading.
\”I like your example with the gun. It is a realistic scenario. Lets look at it in detail. It is not wise to immediatly retaliate physically.\”
and how do you know this? who are you to say what is ‘wise’ in every situation? i think that the reality of that scenario will not exactly leave you with the ability to fully ‘understand the situation’ in the moment. if you can stay calm and rational with a gun in your face, more power to you. im guessing youre what, level 1 or 2 maybe? have you worked on gun defenses yet? if you had, youd know that if you raise your hands and do not go for the gun defense, you have lost a huge opportunity to use that ‘expected’ movement to your advantage. you hands are now directly in the gunmans field of vision (as opposed to coming up from underneath) and his ability to react to your movement is greatly enhanced. i wish you the best of luck with your disarm from that position.
\”Nothing much to lose. It is however unlikely. No principle or strategies, no particular technique will save you, just gut instinct fighinting back. Most people (like you) don’t seem to realize that most situation have a pre-contact phase that lets you defuse and strategize the best defense.\”
are you serious? no particular technique will save you? KMs principle of defending and countering a knife is exactly what CAN save you. what YOU dont seem to want to admit is that street crime is not often something that can be stopped and analyzed in the moment, where you can ‘defuse and strategize’. KM is designed to short circuit an oncoming attack with an aggresive counter offensive. period. if you have the opportunity for defusing and stratagizing, you should have no need for Krav Maga.
Curious, If I remember right you said you were a college student – perhaps you could look into an on campus source and check out the classes available for self defense. Someone there may know Krav Maga also and usually classes for self defense on a campus are around 30 to 50 bucks a month or less. And you find people you can hang with and practice with in off times for free. Post a flyer asking for any Israeli students to call you for information on Krav…. \”Hope this helps\”
As for \”strategizing\”, we do learn certain things, such as potentially asking the gunman a question, such as: \”What do you want?\”, then, when his mind is preoccupied with the answer, it might be a good moment to strike.
We are also told to give the person what he wants if it appears that will solve the situation and he will just take it and leave.
I know Darren mentioned that if the attacker tries to remove you from the initial crime scene, even if it’s just a few feet to a smaller street or alley, your chances of getting killed rise dramatically, so, in that case, at least statistically, you might be better off trying to go for a defense than to comply with his demands.
Those are just some things that came to mind, showing we do talk about these issues.
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GiantkillerMost commonly street situations do give time to assess the situation and strategize. The ones that don’t are the least common. What are typical situation….?
Ego jocks bullying you in front of their friends or girlfriend (far and away the most common)
Road rage
accidentally bumping someone who is in a bad mood
mistaken identity
etcTypical bullying situations start with a high level of verbal aggression and intimidating body language. The attackers may circle you and close distance without actually being violent until they are in your face. First contact may be a shove or lapel grab. This is because they are not psychologically ready to fight yet and are trying to feel you out and get you to resist or shove back. This is where being able to manipulate human behavior pays off. It is also a situation where immediately going pre-emptive is dangerous because of multiple attackers. Maybe when close enough they will sucker punch you. If your hands are up in a passive stance you will be able to react and block the punch without thinking. Hands at the side make it way harder. If you assume the fighting stance while being approached you will escalate the level of violence encouraging them to continue with the attack. Also think about how you look to bystanders. Do you want to look like a victim defending yourself (hands up, passive stance), or someone accepting a challenge to fight (full on fighting stance)? The first is legal, the second is illegal.
As for the gun and hand thing: The hand is quicker than the eye in close range. Having the hands up reduces the distance they need to travel. Hands at your side are in your attackerís field of view (peripheral vision) and bringing them up from the sides is telegraphic. Experiment and see.
I am not saying what we learn in KM is bad, or inappropriate, I am just saying that it is not the solution to the most common threats. Learn it, but try to understand when and where it is appropriate to use.
Giant Killer: those things you mentioned are exactly the sorts of things I am talking about. Talking to the gunman and striking while he answers is an example thought process intruption. You clearly have better KM instructors than I do. I have to learn all that stuff on my own from DVDs and books. From many others posts here, it seems those sorts of tactics are not commonly incorportated in KM training. Really goes to show how the quality of intruction varies.
If you find yourself in an argument, they wouldn’t tell us to stay in the \”passive stance\”, but to put one leg forward, the other back, hands up, basically being in a fighting stance, but not being aggressive, instead acting passively, putting the arms out there but maybe saying \”I don’t want any trouble\” or the like. You act passive/defensive, but you are ready to defend if need be and ready to counter.
The way we bring the hand up for the gun defense (not in a wide looping motion, but more from \”underneath\” the gun, straight up to the barrel) it does make it hard to see. We practice it sometimes with the \”gunman\” (partner), pulling the trigger as soon as he sees the motion. Often, even when he knows it’s coming, he can’t see it. Besides, as dkolb mentioned, you can use the fact that he expects you to put your hands up to practically make the same motion, but as your hand moves up you grab the barrel instead. Virtually impossible for the gunman to tell the difference.
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GiantkillerGiant Killer: the defensive stance you describe is exactly what I am talking about. A stance that gives you access to all your weaonps and defenses without looking like it. Bascially a more relaxed fighting stance with the hands open facing outwards. Your school sounds a lot better than mine to be teaching that sort of thing.
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