Odd technique questions

[krav-4-life]

I’ve been doing Krav for about a year now and am stating to really develop. Anyway, I thought up some strange defense questions on a nine hour flight to England (your mind starts to wander after awhile on a plane with nothing to do) and I was hoping someone might help me out and tell me how would you go about defending yourself in these situations:

-Being choked with a wire (both with and without space)
-Being choked with a bar (both with and without space)
-Gun defense from behind with no space. (e.x: Your in the front seat of a car and the gunman is pointing the gun at you between the space of the seat and the headrest)

Thanks in advance! 😀

[clfmak]

This is not krav, here’s my take:
someone choking with a wire- I treat chokes with or without an implement the same- use a hand to get between you and opponent’s hands/arm/wire if possible, strike as you try to pivot to face them, continue with combatives from there.
Being choked with a bar- same as above.
Gun defense with no space- the way you described it there, it would probably be unwise to attempt anything.

[bradm]

\”-Gun defense from behind with no space. (e.x: Your in the front seat of a car and the gunman is pointing the gun at you between the space of the seat and the headrest)\”

CLFMak makes a good point. However, if you think the attacker will have you drive somewhere and kill you anyway, then perhaps you should try to do something about it. He has the gun, but you are in control of the vehicle, use it. The attacker, sitting in a position you described, won’t have a seat belt on. If you are driving fast enough, slam on your brakes – the attacker should fly forward into the front seat. Perhaps then you could take control of the weapon and try to take it away, or open your door and jump out – run.
If you are driving slow, speed up, weave in and out of traffic if you have too. When you build up speed, slam on your brakes. What ever you do, I don’t think you should drive where the attacker tells you. Do not go to an isolated area.

[giant-killer]

This is a good subject for the technique forum. Maybe we should move it over there.

I don’t think there is any specific KM defense for being choked with a wire/rope. As Mak was saying, if you can get a hand in, do it, spin into him if possible. If it’s tight around your neck already, a defense would be hard if not impossible, especially if it’s a wire. Doesn’t take much for it to cut deep into your neck.

With a rope, you may have a bit more time. You might be able to do a throw and slam him over you and onto the ground, then fight from there. Or you could pull/pluck the attacker’s hands forward, so there’s be less tension in the rope for a moment, enabling you to turn into him and strike. There are some strikes you could use, foot stomps and groin strikes, maybe try to reach behind you and strike him in the eyes. I’m not sure if you’d be able to tell how the rope is crossed behind your neck. If you could, maybe it would be possible to pull on the arm that is holding the part of the rope that is on top, then pull it up and try to twist out. Of course, you wouldn’t have much time, maybe only seconds, much less with a wire, so awareness may be key to solving those problems BEFORE they happen (don’t let him get so close to (or even behind) you, especially if he is carrying a rope or long wire for no reason 🙂 ).

With a stick, you may have a bit more time. You could turn your head to the side, so there’d be less pressure on your throat. Then pluck the stick forward on the side that your head is turned to and try to slip out or turn into him, then do combatives.

For the car, Brad’s idea of slamming on the brakes is a good one, although there is the danger of the gun going off and it wouldn’t give you control over the weapon, which might cause a problem. There are some car jacking defenses we do in KM. If the gun is held higher, near your head, you could do a version of KM’s gun hostage defense. But if it’s really jammed behind your back it may be impossible to get to. Of course, you could lean forward for a moment, hoping to create some space. If it’s held lower, you could maybe still grab it and pull it out from more of a side angle, then point it away from you, maybe pull it forward, but it would be hard. Best thing to do is to get into a car with a training gun and try out all of these different scenarios.

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Giantkiller

[kmcat]

Re:

quote \”BradM\:

\”…, slam on your brakes – the attacker should fly forward into the front seat. Perhaps then you could take control of the weapon and try to take it away, or open your door and jump out – run. …

Even better, just crash the car. Be sure you always fasten your seat belt (saftey first!). You are not going to be driving to any isolated locations with a crashed car and the police will show up soon.

[kravjeff]

Agree with above (mostly) … Key is getting some space, even a finger or two, between the implement (wire, rope, bar) so you can breathe, and turning to attack. We actually did this awhile back choking each other with belts – One of the more creepy things I’ve had to defend.

RE: Vehicle scenario … Depends heavily on whether or not I have my family with me. If I’m alone, I’m either accessing my own weapon, crashing the car or buggin’ out (or some combination of those three). Family with me? Esp kids? Ugh – Don’t even like to think about it, but compliance until an opportunity to attack presents itself seems like the only option.

I read an article a while back where a family was attacked by a shotgun wielding thug. Long story short, he approached their car, entered the backseat where the kids were … While making demands, the husband acessed a handgun while the wife redirected the shotgun (very lucky, as it was them working off of each others instincts – no plan). The husband got off several shots – BG stumbled out of the vehicle, and was on the ground trying to get into his pocket and husband shot him again – Dead. The bad news? He also hit one of his kids who also died … 😥

The article was in the USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association) newsletter – I’ll see if I can find it electronically.

[cjs-dad]

Just for the heck of it I did these yesterday and true to his word Jeff is correct space is the key.

The bar/stick was easy.. basically did choke from behind ñ two handed pluck made space spun did combatives.

Wire was more difficult because of the variables.. if piano wire your screwed its already cutting into the neck and there was really no way to get space if its crossed directly behind your neck BUT if there is space then again address the immediate danger by doing 2 handed pluck behind your head fingers land either on the attackers or on the wire and pull out tuck chin rotate deal with variables with proper combatives as the situation dictates.

Didnít get a chance to work the gun scenario but I would think that we would still need to do the obvious.. address the immediate danger as far as angle of trajectory. Until the opportunity presents itself to move it to a control point off angle then your just treading water.

BTW these are not ìofficially sanctionedî KM techniques just trying to toss out ideas in the hopes that those with more experience can comment. I always try and apply our KM principals when I work through a technique question but I also realize my limitations with knowledge in the system so please take my comments with a grain of salt.

Sean

[giant-killer]

If there are kids or other loved ones in the car, of course that would make things even more complicated. The story about the shotgun wielding attacker is tragic. Maybe, had one of the parents known a KM rifle defense, one of them could have redirected the weapon and tried to disarm the attacker, while keeping the rifle pointed away from any other family members. Meanwhile the other adult would have been able to get the gun. That’s why we always deal with the danger first. If you solely rely on your weapon and shoot without making a defense first, the attacker might still be able to get some shots off.

As for the car scenario, awareness would be important there, too. How did the attacker get into your car, behind your seat and was able to put the gun into this difficult to defend position? Was there anything you could have done to prevent this situation? Defend earlier if he threatened you outside the car? Or lock it, so he couldn’t sneak into the back seat, waiting for you there?

As for slamming on the brakes, one other thing to consider for small people like me, would be the air bag. It could really injure me, or at least trap me, since I’m sitting so close to the steering wheel. I may be trapped and the attacker still has the gun.

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Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”Giant Killer\:

… Maybe, had one of the parents known a KM rifle defense, one of them could have redirected the weapon and tried to disarm the attacker, while keeping the rifle pointed away from any other family members. Meanwhile the other adult would have been able to get the gun. That’s why we always deal with the danger first. If you solely rely on your weapon and shoot without making a defense first, the attacker might still be able to get some shots off. Giantkiller

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This is actually exactly what happened (though no mentionof KM 😉 ) … Wife knew Hubby was going for the gun; she instinctively re-directed the shotgun to the floorboard (and a shot was fired). Husband accessed and presented his handgun and fired several times, hitting the attacker multiple times. It was the husband/father who tragically, and accidentally shot his son, who was behind the attacker.

[unstpabl1]

I don’t know about piano wire as it cuts. There is a san soo principle that says hands follow pain. Its insticntual. Krav plucks are indirectly based on the premise. If your hands get hurt, they go to the mouth. The concept really holds but it may take some thought to convince yourself. People who bag san soo tend to discredit the principle as well.

I’ll give a few examples to explore or think aqbout

If youburn your hand or slam it or hit with a hammer, your hand will immediatly go to your mouth at warp speed

If some even fakes a kick to your groin, instinctually you’ll cover with hands. Stub your toe or smash your knee, hands cover the pain. Its hard wired

Anyway I think instictually you’ll want to get a hold of the weapon. The 2 defenses I’ve seen either require you to shoulder throw forward or to go with the pull back and flip yourself backwards over him. . Sure there are more. just what i’ve seen

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”CJs Dad\:

The bar/stick was easy.. basically did choke from behind ñ two handed pluck made space spun did combatives.

Wire was more difficult because of the variables.. if piano wire your screwed its already cutting into the neck and there was really no way to get space if its crossed directly behind your neck BUT if there is space then again address the immediate danger by doing 2 handed pluck behind your head fingers land either on the attackers or on the wire and pull out tuck chin rotate deal with variables with proper combatives as the situation dictates.
Sean

I haven’t done \”bar/stick\” but can envision the two handed pluck (choke from behind) being problematic … Maybe pluck, spin (pivot) and \”swim\” up inside the stick to gain control and start throwing knees? The way I learned choke from behind (static – no push or pull) is to pluck, step offline (diagonally) and strike the groin before turning. Can you do this while being choked with something or are you referring to a different defense?

Wire (or rope) defnitely seems more difficult. Optimally, you have to be fast to get a hand (or finger) inside before the pressure is exerted. Once it’s there, and your being choked it’s nearly impossible to get in to make space, especially if looped / crossed at the back of your neck (think Godfather style). Turning and beating the taste out of their mouth before losing conciousness is about your only option, especially if being pulled simultaneously (pluck would be different if done at all, but for footwork think of choke from behind with a pull).

Also – Mike said: \”… I think instictually you’ll want to get a hold of the weapon. The 2 defenses I’ve seen either require you to shoulder throw forward or to go with the pull back and flip yourself backwards over him. . Sure there are more. just what i’ve seen\”

Mike – First, I agree that hands go to the threat / pain. This isn’t an indirect premise – It’s the basis, the beauty and the simplicity of the system. Most everything is based upon instinctive reaction.

Throwing someone with something wrapped around your neck seems plausible, but if they really have a hold of you, you’re going with them – Now you’re injured from landing on your head, and on the ground being choked. And as for the \”flip backwards over him\” … Hmmm … Too ninja-esque for Krav. 😉

[unstpabl1]

Re:

quote \”kravjeff\:

[.

Mike – First, I agree that hands go to the threat / pain. This isn’t an indirect premise – It’s the basis, the beauty and the simplicity of the system. Most everything is based upon instinctive reaction.

Throwing someone with something wrapped around your neck seems plausible, but if they really have a hold of you, you’re going with them – Now you’re injured from landing on your head, and on the ground being choked. And as for the \”flip backwards over him\” … Hmmm … Too ninja-esque for Krav. 😉

Hey jeff,

The reason I used \”indirect\” was not to equate the 2 systems and still use the principle. Where from my limited knowledge of krav. it counters and goes midevil on yor azz. Combative wise. San Soo uses the princple to set up the next move making the attacker add to his demise by moving into the power or exposing vitals. San Soo doesn’t practice against resistence so who know the effectiveness, but the principle makes sense

As to the Ninja comment, where do you think I first saw the moves. You know i don’t get into tech discussions often, so fwiw. To me it seems these attacks require desperate measures. If someone gets a rope around you from behind, he’s taking your balance at the same time. By the time your hands get there the balance is broken. No base your lite and no platform to fight back on. Going backwards is going with it , path of least resistence. Your not fighting strength vs strength when he’s got the superior position. Chances that you throw his balance off are good and maybe slip the rope. There both probably sacrifice type throws anyway

I like the techs mentioned but they require a base. I’m not sure you get that with the attack, least I’m having a hard time visualizing it. Going backwards with it may unsettle his balance( not Flipping) enough to allow you to throw him over your forward. Either way its more dangerous than a locked on RNC and more desperate cause you not just going to pass out

These are just my gut feelings on it, i don’t have the background to evaluate techniques

Take care buddy, glad to see you posting more. Nobody to protect me from GK 😛

[cjs-dad]

Jeff maybe I should qualify a little better.

First your comments made me think a little more and wala I see the flaw. My reference to two handed behind the head pluck makes the assumption that the attackers hold on the stick is close to your neck not on the outsides of if. As such when coming over the top of your head (same as choke defense you described) your hands come down on his hands. If his hands arenít there then youíd essentially be grabbing the stick. I also forgot a very key elementÖ Iím bigger and stronger then most.. which by nature breaks one of our basic principles ìthe technique must be able to be performed by the average personî I basically just hit the hands and using my size and strength created space tucked my chin rotated around.

I stand corrected.

Now the good news is Darrens doing an advanced seminar this afternoon so itís a great time to ask him.

[kravjeff]

Re:

Hey Mike! It’s good to be back !!! Now I just have to get back to training again! 😈

To the technique … Being pulled – or pushed – while choked by anything is (obviously) worse than being choked in a static position. And your point of losing your balance, or base, is huge. The key is regaining your base by turining into the attack. Imagine falling back; your instinct is to step back to regain your balance. The technique does exactly this but you turn on that step. Even if it’s impossible to break the choke (say with a rope) re-establishing your base and moving into the attack – then \”gettin’ medival on their azz\” is your best chance (at least from what i’ve learned thus far – I’m no expert!).

Regarding GK: I got your back 😉

CJ’s dad (Sean?):

I understand your point better now too – I imagined you were going for the stick, not the hands. I was going to the stick. I’m not bigger or stronger than most (at least not bigger 😈 ) so maybe that’s why we imagined this differently. Not sure which is right, or if either (or both) are. When we did this with belts we were not going to the hands or plucking anything, we were getting a hand or finger in pre-emptively (not easy with your eyes closed in the dark) making space to breathe and turning to fight. I still think that with a solid object (such as a stick) it may be better to forego the pluck, turn, swim inside and fight, though it would obviously be dictated to some degree by space/no-space. Perhaps employing some of the bear hug from behind techniques should be considered, especially with no space. I’ll be interested to hear what Darren had to say about it – Be sure to report back (when you can type again!).

[strictly-street]

For strangulation from behind, I think you will find this is the best defense: turn around as quickly as possible to face your opponent. Instinctively when being chocked, your hands will go up to your throat, but if they are really trying hard, or crossing the cord/wire in the back it won’t be easy to create space. Turning around quickly will completely throw the attacker off guard as they won’t be expecting it, and give you the element of surprise. When you are facing them, defending yourself will be much easier than trying with your back to them. As well, their hands are occupied so they are open to any attack. As soon as you start fighting back, they will be forced to let go of the cord/wire/stick or whatever. Turning around even while be strangled HARD is surprisingly easy. Try it out and see how it works. Even if your partner knows what you are about to do, and has their knee in your back, or are braced to try and stop you it still works! The rope burn isn’t that bad either. It they are using some really thin wire that is cutting into you I guess you are screwed anyway. This is actually a really common attack and well worth being able to defend against. Especially since the defense is so simple and effective. Practice and see.

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