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Years ago when I first learned how to shoot “properly” my instructor Jeremy Stafford introduced me to the term “OODA LOOP” since then I’ve integrated that process into how I teach doing my best to share that knowledge with students.
Other instructors have also commented on my “passion for violence” when I do technique, specifically in multiple attacker drills/scenarios.
Here’s a great article that combines both topics.http://www.breachbangclear.com/site/10-blog/584-10-important-things-to-know-about-violence.html
I’d enjoy hearing your comments on the subject.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
The OODA Loop is an interesting topic to me too. Some of my Krav instructors aren’t familiar with the term, but when I describe it, they certainly understand the reality of how perceptual delay tends to put someone being attacked in a “-5” state. They also understand how some of the trained sequences to common attacks can break the OODA Loop and put the aggressor at -5. It seems to me that it’s what these sequences are designed to do and largely why RCAT is in the order it is.
As an avid motorcyclist, I employ certain visual techniques to stay ahead of the OODA Loop. A motorcyclist may encounter threats of various kinds somewhat regularly, but even beyond those, corners themselves present some issues related to the OODA Loop for a rider who isn’t keeping his attention far enough ahead.
For example, if a rider is about to begin turning at the entrance to a corner, he may miss his apex or otherwise steer inaccurately if he looks into the corner too late in the steering process. Many riders do in fact stare at the place they will begin turning right up until the moment they begin to lean the bike over. Knowing what you do about the OODA Loop, you’ll realize that this rider has a pretty thin chance of making an accurate steering input because he isn’t looking at where he wants to point the bike until he’s in the process of pointing the bike. From the standpoint of perceptual delay, this is too late. He doesn’t have the time to process the shape of the turn, the location of the apex, any hazards on the surface that may affect his line choice. If he looks into the turn about a half second before arriving at the turn entry, however, he can usually see these things and have the time to observe, orient and decide before he acts. The result is usually a dramatically more accurate turn entry.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
My interpretation of OODA and how I instruct/explain it is somewhat different but IMO not a bad article overall.
Sorry, don’t have time to go into details but a couple for example, I believe when a stimulus causes your OODA to be reset, you loop back to the Orientation phase, not the Observation phase (the observation of whatever caused the reset WAS the stimulus);
the Orientation phase also consists of you recogizing a stimulus for what it truly is, accurately determining if it’s a threat or not, and moving on or not moving on to the Decision phase (do you have to or should you do something about that stimulus or not),
this is where previous training/experience/knowledge/etc comes into play – aka context – a seasoned officer and a trainee could see the same behavior or action but it can mean totally different things to each one (same thing with getting caught in a submission in BJJ as a beginner – you may have seen or felt your opponent’s set up movements/actions but they didn’t mean anything to you at the time).
When I lecture, I also make analogies between officer safety/awareness and defensive driving. Hyper vigilance (expecting and planning for the worst, no matter how benign things/people may seem) is not easy – I used to ride as well and as any motorcyclist can attest, canyon carving or lane splitting at higher speeds for extended periods of time really takes it out of you.
As far as the author’s “acceptance” goes – I don’t put it into OODA. IMO, that’s outside of OODA. Instead of “acceptance”, I use “ready, willing, and able” – whether you’re empty handed or armed with some kind of weapon – dedicated or improvised. Ready – on your guard, prepared, aware, also includes the condition and availability of your tools/weapons, etc. Willing – mentally and emotionally ready to do whatever is reasonable to protect yourself or others, not hesitatating to use force/violence, not being soft on someone who is not worthy of being regarded as a human being, etc. Able – being well-trained and proficient with whatever you are using to protect yourself or others, whether it’s your empty hands, a stick, a knife, a gun, whatever. IMO, the RWA should already be a part of you, who you are, even when there isn’t much OODA activity going on.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Interesting points Don, thank you for sharing them.
I too think there are some differences in my thoughts/interpretation.
I really like the riding analogy I used to akin it to playing a video game, that zone you get into that’s almost surreal. Multiple attacker scenarios slow down for me in much the same way.
Shooting traffic totally different mindset than cruising down an empty highway relaxed.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Talking about the motorcycle thing, I’m not sure what it means but his chart shows that an F1 driver has an average pulse rate of 170-190, higher than many other athletes. According to the chart above that, their physical and mental abilities should be falling apart with it that high but that’s obviously not the case. Shrug….
Re: OODA loop and Violence
I’ve read the same (around 190bpm) for MotoGP riders too. I’m a little biased when I say this but, all else being equal, IMO it takes more skill to ride a motorcycle fast than to drive a car fast.
IMO, these guys/gals have some of the if not The biggest balls on the planet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNp_GIxmshY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HlrI1COSs
It’s amazing what humans can do and get used to doing…
(sorry to sidetrack Sean!)
Re: OODA loop and Violence
What many people dont think about when they kearn about the OODA loop is that its not just about your loop that you have to get through but (in regards to self defense) you also have to disrupt your attackers loop. Its all about all gets there first many times. You want to successfully process the info and react before he does and how you can jam him up.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Some great thoughts on OODA here: http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/search?q=OODA
Re: OODA loop and Violence
quote KevinMack:What many people dont think about when they kearn about the OODA loop is that its not just about your loop that you have to get through but (in regards to self defense) you also have to disrupt your attackers loop. Its all about all gets there first many times. You want to successfully process the info and react before he does and how you can jam him up.^^ I think that’s the main usefulness of the concept, really. Seeing things as soon as possible is the other piece, but getting your attacker on step 1 when you’re at step 4 is where the rubber meets the road.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
quote hoop:Some great thoughts on OODA here: http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/search?q=OODAThe above link didn’t give me a result, but when I searched for OODA, the search produced these articles (and a few others):
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2006/01/ooda-introduction.html
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2006/01/ooda-insights.htmlThese may be the direct links to what you’d found.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/search?q=OODA[/quote]
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2006/01/ooda-introduction.html
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2006/01/ooda-insights.htmlNo offense but it doesn’t sound like something written by a sworn LE officer/sergeant. Sounds more like some ramblings by a beginning to intermediate level martial arts student who hasn’t seen all that much. “brown belt syndrome”? LMAO, yeah maybe if all the brown belts he knows train at McDojos. Someone tell him to look up Keenan Cornelius and see what he accomplished as a brown belt… :rolleyes:
Re: OODA loop and Violence
His blog tends to be free flowing, with little editing. His thoughts get cleaned up and organized when he publishes.
As for his credentials, here is his Bio: http://chirontraining.com/Site/Bio.html
The interesting part, his book, Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence, actually discusses the failings of the McDojo’s and the “brown belt syndrome” when it comes to the real world he experiences as a corrections officer.
Anyway, I benefit from reading his work and I thought it was relevant.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Hey Hoop, firstly, no offense intended towards you – thanks for sharing.
I’ve seen his name come up before. Don’t remember if it was on here or on a LE website/forum. I scanned through his Bio and a couple more pages on his site – much better put together/presented IMO. I still think those passages on OODA sounds pretty juvenile but I appreciate what he does as a CO and instructor.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
I like Rory Millers ideas,discussions and research yet I dont really like the techniques he teaches. They seem unnatural and too steeped in traditional martial arts which is odd as he speaks about modern training.
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