- This topic has 21 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 9 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: OODA loop and Violence
We had plenty of discussions about the OODA loop in the military. Something I’d like to point out that I’ve only heard mentioned twice: disrupting your adversary’s OODA loop doesn’t have to be a faster execution of your OODA loop, it can be forcing a slower execution of theirs, or waiting until conditions have forced theirs to be slow and/or corrupted. Think: flashbang, broken nose, ash tray to the head, alcohol, the flu.
Re: OODA loop and Violence
One of the best explanations of OODA come from Nir, when he basically says that the brain is like a spinning wheel on a bike, it keeps spinning until you put a stick into the wheel and it stops spinning, now you have to remove the stick to start all over again.
Your attackers mind is made and is acting towards a certain objective, he’s already gone thru the 4 steps, it’s up to us to cause pain/damage/distract to hit the attackers reset button, making our job easier.
He says perceive/analyze/formulate/execute, but it’s all the same.
OODA sounds cooler than PAFE….:Unsure:
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Hey Rick, would that be “pahf” “payf” or “pa Fay”? :p
(more pesos related to LE training)
For my lectures, after I explain what OODA is and how it works and applies to things like reactionary gap/lag time/action is faster than reaction/etc, then I talk about how it relates to us doing our jobs – why we train certain procedures or utilize certain techniques. Along the lines of what Kevin, Timmy, and Rick said, I discuss how we apply OODA in combat.
For our own OODA loops, we are trying to accelerate the cycle, minimizing the time for each component of OODA, and getting from O to A in as little time as possible. OBSERVE – we need to pay attention/maintain awareness, you can’t react to something you don’t see coming. ORIENT – schema and context – if you do see something, you have to know what you’re looking at, recognizing danger signs and red flags, recognizing early on if/when a situation could be turning bad for you. DECIDE – knowing legal standing, what our rules of engagement are, knowing what we’re allowed to do, pre-planning ahead of time (running drills, scenarios, mental evaluations, etc) possible courses of action for particular situations. ACT – Training and Practicing – our physical skills and abilities, using and deploying/employing tools and weapons (even empty hands), etc.
We stress that hesitation to use force or using too little force can get you seriously hurt or killed. We remind our students that having Knowledge and Confidence increases your Decisiveness.
And as has been mentioned, in relation to our opponents’ OODAs, we are trying to either get to A before they do or interrupt or reset their loop (not allowing them to get to A) or both.
For our opponent’s OODA – OBSERVE – don’t let them see or know that something is coming, the elements of surprise or deception, not giving them a free opportunity to do something about what you’re planning to do to them. ORIENT – keep moving, keep them guessing, give them as much new stimuli as possible (especially if/when you’re already behind the 8 ball) the more predictable you are, the more you stay still, the easier it is for your opponent. DECIDE – interrupt their thought processes, keeping them mentally and physically engaged in something other than formulating or carrying out a plan. If you’re having trouble keeping them occupied (they’re not talking to you or answering questions or following orders), it’s very likely they’re planning on lying, fleeing, or attacking. ACT – put yourself in a position of physical advantage and them a position of disadvantage every chance you get. Restrict their ability to move or act, make them at least give you some kind of warning or indication that they are about to do something; or maybe get them to start a bad motor program, to do something you would prefer them to do and are ready for.
Tuhon Tom Kier (Sayoc Kali) tells a story about him shooting pool (9 ball) with a nationally ranked player one time. It was Tuhon Tom’s turn to break so he broke, sank a ball, and then proceeded to run the table on the other guy. He then states that him running the table on the other guy doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s a better pool player than the other guy – the point was that it was his (Tuhon Tom’s) turn, he kept his turn, and the other guy didn’t get a chance to go.
To borrow Sayoc Kali terminology – we’d prefer to be the Feeder rather than Receiver whenever possible, we’d prefer them reacting to us rather than the other way around. And if we start out as the Receiver, we need to somehow get to being the Feeder as early as possible. If/when it’s our turn to go, we never let the other guy go again. Ideally…
thumbsupRe: OODA loop and Violence
quote Don:To borrow Sayoc Kali terminology – we’d prefer to be the Feeder rather than Receiver whenever possible, we’d prefer them reacting to us rather than the other way around. And if we start out as the Receiver, we need to somehow get to being the Feeder as early as possible. If/when it’s our turn to go, we never let the other guy go again. Ideally…
thumbsupYou pretty much hit the nail right on the head with that~
Re: OODA loop and Violence
quote Don:Hey Rick, would that be “pahf” “payf” or “pa Fay”? :p(more pesos related to LE training)
For my lectures, after I explain what OODA is and how it works and applies to things like reactionary gap/lag time/action is faster than reaction/etc, then I talk about how it relates to us doing our jobs – why we train certain procedures or utilize certain techniques. Along the lines of what Kevin, Timmy, and Rick said, I discuss how we apply OODA in combat.
For our own OODA loops, we are trying to accelerate the cycle, minimizing the time for each component of OODA, and getting from O to A in as little time as possible. OBSERVE – we need to pay attention/maintain awareness, you can’t react to something you don’t see coming. ORIENT – schema and context – if you do see something, you have to know what you’re looking at, recognizing danger signs and red flags, recognizing early on if/when a situation could be turning bad for you. DECIDE – knowing legal standing, what our rules of engagement are, knowing what we’re allowed to do, pre-planning ahead of time (running drills, scenarios, mental evaluations, etc) possible courses of action for particular situations. ACT – Training and Practicing – our physical skills and abilities, using and deploying/employing tools and weapons (even empty hands), etc.
We stress that hesitation to use force or using too little force can get you seriously hurt or killed. We remind our students that having Knowledge and Confidence increases your Decisiveness.
And as has been mentioned, in relation to our opponents’ OODAs, we are trying to either get to A before they do or interrupt or reset their loop (not allowing them to get to A) or both.
For our opponent’s OODA – OBSERVE – don’t let them see or know that something is coming, the elements of surprise or deception, not giving them a free opportunity to do something about what you’re planning to do to them. ORIENT – keep moving, keep them guessing, give them as much new stimuli as possible (especially if/when you’re already behind the 8 ball) the more predictable you are, the more you stay still, the easier it is for your opponent. DECIDE – interrupt their thought processes, keeping them mentally and physically engaged in something other than formulating or carrying out a plan. If you’re having trouble keeping them occupied (they’re not talking to you or answering questions or following orders), it’s very likely they’re planning on lying, fleeing, or attacking. ACT – put yourself in a position of physical advantage and them a position of disadvantage every chance you get. Restrict their ability to move or act, make them at least give you some kind of warning or indication that they are about to do something; or maybe get them to start a bad motor program, to do something you would prefer them to do and are ready for.
Tuhon Tom Kier (Sayoc Kali) tells a story about him shooting pool (9 ball) with a nationally ranked player one time. It was Tuhon Tom’s turn to break so he broke, sank a ball, and then proceeded to run the table on the other guy. He then states that him running the table on the other guy doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s a better pool player than the other guy – the point was that it was his (Tuhon Tom’s) turn, he kept his turn, and the other guy didn’t get a chance to go.
To borrow Sayoc Kali terminology – we’d prefer to be the Feeder rather than Receiver whenever possible, we’d prefer them reacting to us rather than the other way around. And if we start out as the Receiver, we need to somehow get to being the Feeder as early as possible. If/when it’s our turn to go, we never let the other guy go again. Ideally…
thumbsupWell put!
Re: OODA loop and Violence
Hey gang, I am a new poster and would like some feed back please.
Some thing I have found in my research on OODA is that it is not just the fastest acting that interrupts an, I will term “Aggressor”, loop. Because the Aggressor is expecting compliance with his/her act the simple act of fighting back can interrupt the loop and give the defender an advantage.
Has any one else found this to be true?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
