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Re: Philosophy on Sparring
Psyops, I think you hit hte nail on the head. This is one of the reasons I stopped training in Krav Maga when I moved to Orlando. The school I trained at placed way too much emphasis on MMA type sparring and ground fighting and not enough on self defense. One of the instructors even told me that they wanted to use the Krav classes for MMA stuff. It may have changed by now, but I never went back to find out.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
Cook is not 100% incorrect. Not that I am a qualified individual to validate a final conclusion but if you do peck around on youtube you see…..hmmm….maybe 1/8 of the “real” fights have one or both fights hit the ground.
Usually though if it more than one on one you are totally screwed. So far I have never seen a 1 vs 2+ go to ground and see it end up well for the defender. KM, Street fighting, Boxing, etc appear to do very well in this type of dynamic.
I can see Cook’s argument as valid though. I mean think about it. To drunk guys fighting over for the love of Trixy the local bar maiden. I can’t see their footwork being up to par. I can totally see them wrestling around in the bar peanuts and vomit.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
Sorry, but I didn’t realize we were talking about two drunks fighting. I’m not sure why we would be, either. I was under the impression that we were making the conversation functional for our needs, so unless you’re one of the drunks, and/or you’re choosing to go to the ground, there’s nothing to support the “will probably go to the ground anyway” argument. Is it possible? Sure, anything is, but a given? I don’t think so.
Also, I’ve never seen a KM school that spent equal amounts of time on groundfighting and standing skills. KM classes, in general, must spend time on combatives (generally standing), self defense (generally standing), weapons (generally standing), multiples (generally standing), groundfighting, and conditioning. Now, all of these things should be addressed on the ground as well, but no way should they get equal time, in my opinion.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
You’re right Ryan….I was just taking his perspective into account. He made the comment that he was a bouncer during his youth. So naturally I think most of his exposure to violent situations is going to be drunks.
Some of you guys that spent time in the military or in tough areas of town have a different perspective all together. Street fighting is all (IMHO) about deception and confronting the victim in a manner that causes them to lock up mentally for an easy win.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
With all due respect, if fights didn’t go to the ground more times than not, why would most training include ground fighting?
Not trying to be a fire starter here, but I’m seriously concerned why all of my training so far in both Krav and Combative Tactics, why all the training manuals, both online and in print, include ground fighting techniques.
I’m not as experienced in martial arts as a lot of you guys and gals, but I do know my real life experience has been that if the fight goes for more than a few seconds it’s usually going to the ground. Agreed, a trained fighter probably doesn’t want to gom to the ground, but a good fighter should be equally versatile in case it does, right?Re: Philosophy on Sparring
“With all due respect, if fights didn’t go to the ground more times than not, why would most training include ground fighting?”
Sorry, but I’m having a hard time following that logic. So, because training includes groundfighting, fights must go to the ground more often than not? That doesn’t make any sense, and for the record, my experience isn’t just in martial arts.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
Why are we seperating ground and standing in the first place? This isnt sport, Krav is self defense and includes any scenario. How many fights have a gun? We still train it.
Besides, this thread is about sparring.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
No offense, but the thread is about whatever posters choose to make it about, I believe.
Also, who’s arguing that KM isn’t self defense, or that it doesn’t include all aspects of self defense? Ground and standing are generally different ranges, so “separating” them for the purpose of discussion is typical and not unreasonable.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
Gentlemen, you’re right on all fronts. My tangential comments, again, weren’t meant to start any arguments. My respect to all you and your own experiences.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
I did not do a good job getting my point across, probably because I rushed my post.
What I meant was that in many arts, particularly sports, we “seperate” ground and stand up as a preparation for an upcoming fight. A fighter might work on his weakness or maybe needs to sharpen an area based on the opponents strength. So there’s somewhat of a natural seperation. Plus they are training different styles like BJJ and then MT.
With KM, I dont think we have that same need only because we are trying to prepare for the unexpected.
As for the thread, I thought we were supposed to stay on point…then again what do I know. Either way is fine. My reasoning is why bury a good topic like this ground/standup inside a sparring thread? It gets lost.
I hope Im not coming off like “Dont mess with my thread” because thats not what I mean. I just mean its another good topic for discussion.
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
MMA for the most part is a “delivery system” that has certain ROE. Krav Maga has a very similar if not the same delivery system with different ROE. The reason fight class and self defense class are seperated like kenpo is they start at 2 different levels of awareness and opposition.
Going to the ground is a strategy that some mma guys employ and others don’t based on the rules of the event one will favor the other. Going to the ground on the street is not a good strategy for obvious reasons. In Under And Alone there is a perfect example of a guy taking a Mongel to the ground and GNP’ing him. His mistake. I think he might have survived. Cops employ the strategy to get the perp cuffed. Probably not fun to wrestle around with all that crap on. You may go there but do you wanna stay there.
Sparring is important for various reasons, but its not a fight. It doesn’t start like a fight or finish as one though mma is probably the closest way to approximate one. Truthfully, I think scenario training ends up being the most valuable. Its funny but in Thailand they don’t spar much, because they fight often. most of their training is with the coach holding pads
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
For any future questions, please refer to unstpabl1’s post. Very nice!
All the best!
Re: Philosophy on Sparring
quote Ryan:For any future questions, please refer to unstpabl1’s post. Very nice!All the best!
Thanks Ryan. You too. Saw your name on the previews for the new krav books. Congratulationthumbsup I’ll probably even have to contribute to your cause.
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