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Re: Progression?
I would also throw out there that it is cumulative training at that level.
I like to take classes a lot. I was recently passed my Orange belt test and am able to take level 3 classes.
In my week of taking 5-6 classes/week, I am taking:
1 level 1 class.
4 level 2 classes.
1-2 level 3 classes.Some of this is limited by my availability to take classes and the classes available at that time.
Some of this is because I did pass the test, but I can’t ignore that training and just move on. I can definitely refine and improve what I have learned.
I have been advised (and by very reliable sources) to continue the early levels along with the newer levels as it will always be the foundation that the higher levels build upon.
I was very happy to pass Level 1 and have the opportunity to learn level 2 material. I did not think I would feel the need to progress further. After SOME time, I began to get excited to learn even more. That was the motivation to finally focus on passing that level test to open up furhter instruction. The earlier levels are still just as fun.
Dave
Re: Progression?
quote Kirsten:Well, there is a place for testing- don’t get me wrong. And I would argue your point that KM is only in its purest form in the IDF. The military is not the ìend all be allî for training as we like to think it is. My Korean instructor would say the same about TKD only being good in Korea, except for HIS school of course. Until the í88 Olympics came along and the US killed the competition. I have heard Japanese instructors say this; Brazilian instructors say this and on and onÖ <Yawn>. It gets old, but I am not here to argue that and I am not likely to change your opinion of it regardless.But getting to the point of the thread, testing is a right of passage for some. I personally feel like after a zillion years, I have done it enough. However I know that I need to just do it and show the instructor I am ready. And as an instructor, I am better able to gauge a student when they are moving through the test with everyone else present with them.
Some black belts in other systems feel that they should not have to test, or get to jump the line because of this. Also, some students are very afraid of it and need the push. Others use the “don’t believe in it” mantra as an excuse. They often don’t want to slow down and learn the foundation that can be considered “boring” compared to more advanced skills. As we know, without a foundation the rest is just pointless…
So figure out what your motives are for testing or not testing. But try no matter what to use testing not as a race but as a reward for hard training and a chance to challenge your self.
Mara-Jade, sounds like your in good hands with your instructor. You are way ahead of the rest in training if you see the benefit of slowing down. Pat yourself on the back and keep at it!
All excellent points and I am not trying to argue it just pointing out my opinion. I would loove to see the workshop portion of the exam cut out—I think thats the reason we go to classes. I definitely understand you would want to go over some minor things to make sure you covered all the bases so thats good. I am a bit in disagreement with burning out the students then teting under exhaustion. I see the reasoning but just do not agree.
One thing I love about KM is even with things I may not like or agree with I can totally see reason behind it. Usually it makes more sense than what my opinion is!
Re: Progression?
[quote=KMMAN;36041]All excellent points and I am not trying to argue it just pointing out my opinion. I would loove to see the workshop portion of the exam cut out—I think thats the reason we go to classes. I definitely understand you would want to go over some minor things to make sure you covered all the bases so thats good. I am a bit in disagreement with burning out the students then teting under exhaustion. I see the reasoning but just do not agree.
quote]
I’m right there with you, and recently had this discussion on another forum. I’ve done martial arts of one form or another for over 30 years, and been in law enforcement for about 20, and tons of fights over the years. I also spend a considerable amount of time working out, and have also worked out for over 30 years.
I do not agree with the workshop portion either. It’s fine to have a workshop, but I don’t think it should be immediately before the test. I see a test as a verification of a student’s progress and nothing more. The stress inoculation factors should occur during class or during a seminar, IMO. If a student cannot handle the stress or is not in good enough condition, then don’t allow them to test. I believe the test should be no more than an hour or hour and a half, and making the test an endurance contest just does not make sense to me. I understand the reasoning behind it, but feel it is misguided. Having been in many stressful situations including a lot of SWAT work and a shooting, I fail to see how a lengthy test/endurance session relates to it. Two different things, IMO.
I have tested in KM and trained for a couple of years in KM, but I have to confess this is one reason I no longer do. I am almost 48 now, and have no desire to risk injuring myself to gain rank. I don’t put a lot of stock in rankings anyway, and am much more interested in what a person can DO. I still spend a lot of time training, in H2H as well as knife, stick and gun, but don’t give two cents about attaining rank. The downside is that if you don’t test, you are pretty much stuck where you are and don’t get the new material.
Not a flame against KM as I think it is a fantastic system, but I believe the testing process is misguided. JM2C.
Re: Progression?
[quote=Michael;36045]
quote KMMAN:All excellent points and I am not trying to argue it just pointing out my opinion. I would loove to see the workshop portion of the exam cut out—I think thats the reason we go to classes. I definitely understand you would want to go over some minor things to make sure you covered all the bases so thats good. I am a bit in disagreement with burning out the students then teting under exhaustion. I see the reasoning but just do not agree.quote]
I’m right there with you, and recently had this discussion on another forum. I’ve done martial arts of one form or another for over 30 years, and been in law enforcement for about 20, and tons of fights over the years. I also spend a considerable amount of time working out, and have also worked out for over 30 years.
I do not agree with the workshop portion either. It’s fine to have a workshop, but I don’t think it should be immediately before the test. I see a test as a verification of a student’s progress and nothing more. The stress inoculation factors should occur during class or during a seminar, IMO. If a student cannot handle the stress or is not in good enough condition, then don’t allow them to test. I believe the test should be no more than an hour or hour and a half, and making the test an endurance contest just does not make sense to me. I understand the reasoning behind it, but feel it is misguided. Having been in many stressful situations including a lot of SWAT work and a shooting, I fail to see how a lengthy test/endurance session relates to it. Two different things, IMO.
I have tested in KM and trained for a couple of years in KM, but I have to confess this is one reason I no longer do. I am almost 48 now, and have no desire to risk injuring myself to gain rank. I don’t put a lot of stock in rankings anyway, and am much more interested in what a person can DO. I still spend a lot of time training, in H2H as well as knife, stick and gun, but don’t give two cents about attaining rank. The downside is that if you don’t test, you are pretty much stuck where you are and don’t get the new material.
Not a flame against KM as I think it is a fantastic system, but I believe the testing process is misguided. JM2C.
You so perfectly detailed my concerns. I thought about not testing and going to all the combatitives classes and bag training but I would be stuck at the same Level learning the same techniques. Therefore, I am finding myself at the boxing gym more and more even though I love KM. Without the worry about advancing I am finding myself worrying more about my jab, cross etc. I really do love KM and it’s philosophy however. There’s really nothing quite like it.
Re: Progression?
[quote=KMMAN;36057]
quote Michael:Therefore, I am finding myself at the boxing gym more and more even though I love KM.I have seen that happen a fair bit.
Re: Progression?
[quote=KMMAN;36057]
quote Michael:You so perfectly detailed my concerns. I thought about not testing and going to all the combatitives classes and bag training but I would be stuck at the same Level learning the same techniques. Therefore, I am finding myself at the boxing gym more and more even though I love KM. Without the worry about advancing I am finding myself worrying more about my jab, cross etc. I really do love KM and it’s philosophy however. There’s really nothing quite like it.I really wonder how many students KM loses because of the testing process? Not because they can’t do it, but because they don’t want to, or they are older like me and don’t want to take the chance?
I push myself very hard in my own training and am in great shape compared to most my age, but as Clint Eastwood said, “a man has got to know his limitations.”
Re: Progression?
[QUOTE=Michael;36074]
quote KMMAN:I really wonder how many students KM loses because of the testing process? Not because they can’t do it, but because they don’t want to, or they are older like me and don’t want to take the chance?I push myself very hard in my own training and am in great shape compared to most my age, but as Clint Eastwood said, “a man has got to know his limitations.”
I’m sure that we’ve lost many students, and as a licensee and an instructor, I’m OK with that. My tests are brutal, I make no bones about it (just like my tests at the NTC were). But at the same time, they are scaleable. I know that student A might only be able to perform at a certain level while student B might be able to perform at a higher level. As long as they are both able to perform the technique under stress and exhaustion, they will both pass. It is incumbent on the testing instructor to know their students.
As far as taking the chance of getting injured, I’ve seen far more people injured during the course of regular classes than I have during testing. A man does have to know his limitations, but Krav Testing is not like Hell Week at BUDS for gods sake. I have seen several of the over 50 set test into higher levels at the NTC. It’s about 4 hours of suck it up, completely doable for anybody who puts their time in training and preparing.
Re: Progression?
[quote=Jeremy Stafford;36095]
quote Michael:I’m sure that we’ve lost many students, and as a licensee and an instructor, I’m OK with that. My tests are brutal, I make no bones about it (just like my tests at the NTC were). But at the same time, they are scaleable. I know that student A might only be able to perform at a certain level while student B might be able to perform at a higher level. As long as they are both able to perform the technique under stress and exhaustion, they will both pass. It is incumbent on the testing instructor to know their students.As far as taking the chance of getting injured, I’ve seen far more people injured during the course of regular classes than I have during testing. A man does have to know his limitations, but Krav Testing is not like Hell Week at BUDS for gods sake. I have seen several of the over 50 set test into higher levels at the NTC. It’s about 4 hours of suck it up, completely doable for anybody who puts their time in training and preparing.
But still Jeremy it is a legitimate concern, especially for us near 50 year olds. I turn in a little over 2 weeks, Even at instructor levels is a 4 hour test a necessary assessment other than with an instruction focus? Truth be told, I’m torn. I really like the mentality it instills on the other hand even scaled down is it worth it or necessary. Do you end up losing some really skilled students and instructors because of it. I’m not one for easing standards, but I am one that looks at what and why things are done. What isn’t accomplished in a 2 hour test that is in a 4 hour one? I mean it can’t be sheer conditioning or a never quit attitude because a twenty minute xfit type w/o can expose that weakness.
As I said I’m torn because it is a rite of passage, but I see Michaels point as well. I really am on the fence about it. If I was 30 probably wouldn’t be an issue
Re: Progression?
[quote=mara_jade;35957
Testing – my first level 1 test I WAS scared. I was 15 pounds overweight and the test was five hours. To look back now and say I did that and my level 2 (another 5 hours-LOL), ain’t no way I’m NOT gonna test for 3 but I’m doing it with hubby-period:D:[/quote]Hey MJ…I’m going to make a suggestion…kinda like the Welcoming Commitee thing…. I’m hesitating in a way because it might seem really an odd suggestion at first or at least like a none of my business thing. I realize Krav is an activity that you and your husband share. But I think you guys should consider taking a test seperately?
This way you each learn that you can push thru and accomplish hardship on your own. right now you guys can feed off each others energy and push each other thru. Thats a great thing to have that kind of support system in the room. But there may be a time when you gotta gut it out on your own and be your own support system. This may be a really great learning opportunity. It may take you out of a comfort zone and expand you
As odd as this may seem there is validity to it. If you were attacked chances are your hubby might not be there or visa versa. There are other reasons that I don’t want to get into. Its just something to think about. Not me trying to tell you what to do:D:
Re: Progression?
[quote=unstpabl1;36140]
quote Jeremy Stafford:But still Jeremy it is a legitimate concern, especially for us near 50 year olds. I turn in a little over 2 weeks, Even at instructor levels is a 4 hour test a necessary assessment other than with an instruction focus? Truth be told, I’m torn. I really like the mentality it instills on the other hand even scaled down is it worth it or necessary. Do you end up losing some really skilled students and instructors because of it. I’m not one for easing standards, but I am one that looks at what and why things are done. What isn’t accomplished in a 2 hour test that is in a 4 hour one? I mean it can’t be sheer conditioning or a never quit attitude because a twenty minute xfit type w/o can expose that weakness.As I said I’m torn because it is a rite of passage, but I see Michaels point as well. I really am on the fence about it. If I was 30 probably wouldn’t be an issue
If the material can’t be tested under the stress of a real world encounter, then the next best thing is to test it under exhaustion and induced stress. One of the basic tenets of Krav is that we train and test from a position of disadvantage. Even if a crossfit type workout was used as a primer, it could not promote the same type of mental fatigue that a three hour workshop does. You would be surprised at the amount students that have never had to push themselves, and the empowerment that happens to them when they complete the test and know that they accomplished something that not everybody can. I live for those moments, and I won’t sacrifice them or my peace of mind knowing that I trained and tested my students to their absolute limits. If it costs me students, then so be it. It lets me go to bed with a clear conscience. A very good friend of mine that I taught with at the Police Academy had a recruit get into a shooting and lose. For months after the funeral, my friend was haunted by the question “what more could I have done to prepare him”? I won’t have to ask those questions of myself if god forbid one of my students is forced to defend themselves or a loved one. Other Instructors may disagree, and thats fine. I will not compromise my standards to make a buck or increase retention.
Re: Progression?
BTW, It is a legitamate concern! It’s just one of those things that people will have to decide for themselves. That’s why we offer bag and conditioning classes, because we usually hemhorrage students between level 2 and 3. I know that some schools offer “executive” Krav classes that cater to an older clientelle. The market will decide. If I had students clamoring for this then I would do it, but I would not test them to an actual KMWW rank. I feel that that would be a slap in the face to those who have gone before me.
Re: Progression?
It is an issue, and though many students may never tell the instructor that is why they are quitting, I saw a lot of it in my former Krav school. I also saw guys who were better technically than others, but the young studs with much worse technique would test and get promoted while some of the older guys would not even test. That did not mean they could not handle themselves when the elephant came.
I’ll use myself for instance. I’m almost 48, workout at least four days per week and train intensely. I’m fitter than most guys who are 20, but I also have a lot of old injuries and aches and pains from a lifetime of hard training. I have no qualms about throwing down with anyone in a scrap, and have always prevailed. I do it for a living where I work. I trained CrossFit for a while, and spent 7 years on SWAT. The SWAT school was hard—harder than anything I’ve ever done. I know what it takes to “never quit” and to press on in spite of pain, fatigue, and even while injured. I’ve fought while hurt, and gotten back up and finished the fight after getting knocked on my arse in the middle of a crowd after an SEC football game (while working as a cop and alone). I don’t quit, and would never give in during a fight. Never.
All that said, I’m at a point in my life that I want to train, learn and push myself. I do that daily in my training, but have no desire to go through an arduous testing process that I don’t see as necessary. To me, other than the political infighting, this is one of the major problems facing Krav today. Maybe I’m the lone ranger in my thinking, but I don’t think so. Fitness and endurance are necessary, not only in defensive training, but also in life. I am a big proponent of it, and am constantly changing my own workouts to make myself faster, stronger and fitter. I just don’t think a test should be an endurance contest. Many will disagree with that, but it is what it is.
JM2C.
Re: Progression?
quote Michael:It is an issue, and though many students may never tell the instructor that is why they are quitting, I saw a lot of it in my former Krav school. I also saw guys who were better technically than others, but the young studs with much worse technique would test and get promoted while some of the older guys would not even test. That did not mean they could not handle themselves when the elephant came.I’ll use myself for instance. I’m almost 48, workout at least four days per week and train intensely. I’m fitter than most guys who are 20, but I also have a lot of old injuries and aches and pains from a lifetime of hard training. I have no qualms about throwing down with anyone in a scrap, and have always prevailed. I do it for a living where I work. I trained CrossFit for a while, and spent 7 years on SWAT. The SWAT school was hard—harder than anything I’ve ever done. I know what it takes to “never quit” and to press on in spite of pain, fatigue, and even while injured. I’ve fought while hurt, and gotten back up and finished the fight after getting knocked on my arse in the middle of a crowd after an SEC football game (while working as a cop and alone). I don’t quit, and would never give in during a fight. Never.
All that said, I’m at a point in my life that I want to train, learn and push myself. I do that daily in my training, but have no desire to go through an arduous testing process that I don’t see as necessary. To me, other than the political infighting, this is one of the major problems facing Krav today. Maybe I’m the lone ranger in my thinking, but I don’t think so. Fitness and endurance are necessary, not only in defensive training, but also in life. I am a big proponent of it, and am constantly changing my own workouts to make myself faster, stronger and fitter. I just don’t think a test should be an endurance contest. Many will disagree with that, but it is what it is.
JM2C.
It seems to me that this is a problem with the Instructor giving the test, not with the system. I know that not everybody’s 100% is the same, but it is incumbent on me (the Instructor) to make sure everybody is at their 100%, regardless of what it is, and that they can perform the techniques under duress. When I tested one of my mid forties female students from level 1 to level 2, she did not look the same as one of my 25 year old PT stud students, but she performed the techniques to a reasonable standard and passed. It is on the Instructor as much as it’s on the student. That being said, it is probably an absolute truth that Brown or Black belts may be out of reach for many older students due to injuries and “mileage”. I have a friend that is an incredibly talented Blue Belt, but he has a degenerative neck condition and he knows that he will never test to his Brown. As his instructor, I know this, so I invite him to train with my advanced students whenever possible. He has to sit some things out, but his experience and expertise are not lost to the rest of us. He’s not bitter about not testing, as he knows that he physically can’t do it, but he continues to train and inspire. I couldn’t imagine excluding someone like that because he did not test.
Re: Progression?
I may be a minority here and that’s fine. I wouldn’t trade my 5 hour (yup, I said 5 hour) test for anything. Was I scared? I’d be lying if I said no. Hubby and I hadn’t been through anything like this when we took our Level 1. I thought we were nuts but my instructors thought we were ready or they would’ve told us no when we signed up for it. We hurt like hell for days but to know we did it and made it – what a rush:woohoo: We were nuts enough to do it again and pass Level 2.
I know some have gawked at those of us who have had the brutal tests (as Jeremy calls them). Maybe I’ve been brainwashed after so long but you know what, in my heart I know if I can survive that, getting to the next level ain’t that far.
As for the workshop portion, I don’t see what’s wrong with it. I don’t consider it any kind of crutch since if you don’t know the moves, when you’re being tested, the instructors are GONNA see. Never happened at my center that I know of, but they’ve always said if during the workshop they see you’re not ready, they’ll pull you out from testing.
Do I wanna progress? Hell yes. I’m no spring chicken and things have come up (illness, injury, etc) that have kept hubby and I from testing Level 3 and it’s been probably 2 years since we last tested. I’m taking steps to fix what I know is broken. They’ll be the good and bad days and you just go with the flow. As for those who say they can’t progress, every center is different in that regard. Like Jeremy said, students can take higher classes at the instructor’s discretion if that’s offered.
Everyone’s gotta decide for themselves. I just had to put in my 2 cents cause I just seem to see the majority of posts here that make testing and such bad. I’m sorry but I don’t agree:wav:
Re: Progression?
Started Krav in late 01 and passed L5 or black belt, exam in 07, so it took roughly 5-6 years.
Plantman, as mentioned previously, the timeline is cumulative. Training to progress to brown belt should take roughly a year AFTER YOUR BLUE BELT EXAM.
If I may infuse my own experience and perspectives:
If you believe the exam format is misguided, no one is forcing you to progress through Krav rankings. In many cases, advanced students CAN’T GET ENOUGH of L1 classes anyways, even after moving up.
Furthermore, I wouldn’t say you’re completely in Krav Purgatory if you don’t promote. If I notice a large number of seasoned myrmidons in L1, I’ll integrate the occasional advanced technique (rifle, hostage, shoulder throw, ground sweeps, etc.) to keep everybody happy.
Regarding exams and age, youth and athleticism indeed play factors, but they are not the only factors. I myself have proctored exams (from yellow to brown) where I failed athletic specimens, and also seen older, less athletically-inclined students fight through injuries and adequately perform the techniques.
I myself incurred nasty re-aggravations of a pinched nerve and a meniscus issue on my black belt exam.
For me, the rite of passage was worth the sacrifice. That’s just me and not everyone.
There is always going to be attrition after every exam, no matter how long/short, easy/hard we make it. Some leave saying the exam was egregious, others will say it wasn’t hard enough. Same as progressions in bjj, judo, and probably all other martial arts.
In terms of student retention, two big components, IMO, are instructor quality (both technically and as a student-advocate) and the general atmosphere of the school. If camaraderie is nurtured, and you keep nickel-and-diming to a minimum, most folks will stay, even the ones that skip the exams.
If it becomes too spartan or darwinian, students will be shamed into leaving.
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