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Recently a student from our school visited another location and an interesting item came up while he trained there. While throwing knees our student applied a MT grip while throwing knees. The instructor told him that the MT grip “was not Krav Maga” and that he should be off to the side with one hand on the trapezius and the other on the attackers bicep…….
Two things about this jump out. First since when is the MT grip “not Krav”? I have seen this grip taught at NTC and other schools for years. SO has there been some sort of change regarding this. Secondly. A smaller person has no chance of holding a much bigger opponent by their traps and bicep. It just won’t happen. So while my understanding of the proper usage of both techniques is clear. I think the distinction should still be emphasized.
A smaller person can absoulutely hold a bigger person in the MT clinch. The real issue is how long the smaller person remains in that position. The MT grip is the preffered grip in my opinion. As long as the fingers of the defender are not interlaced the control gained from this grip can’t be denied.
Most importantly though is this whole idea of what technique qualifies as Krav Maga or not Krav Maga. Krav Maga is an attitude and a philosophy more than it is a specific technique. Is picking up an ash tray and knocking an attackers teeth out of his mouth Krav Maga? Yes!!!!! Go home safe. Adress the threat/attack the source. Use all means available. This is Krav Maga. Any thoughts?
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
The other school was wrong.
Even the Complete Krav Maga shows the variation.
To quote from the book:
“If you place one hand on either side of your opponent’s head (a Muay Thai clinch), use either knee for the strike.”
It’s on page 50 and has a pic to accompany it.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
I’m fairly new to Krav Maga…. But I don’t even know what the “MT grip” is. At NTC, the only grip I’ve learned for throwing a kneee is grabbing the attacker’s trapezius and bicep (well… more side of the arm between the bi and tri), or grabbing the attackers head if you’re going to throw a knee to the face. Could you elaborate for some of us who aren’t as familiar with the terminology?
I do agree with you that saying a technique that works is not Krav Maga, especialy when it’s a technique that an instructor has seen taught at the NTC, is probably the wrong way to go about things. If one technique doesn’t work for you and another one does, use it!!! (as long as it’s tacticly sound). One of the things I love about Krav Maga is that it is not a competition sport, so the emphasis is placed on effectiveness, not everyone being a mirror immage of eachother.
:soapbox:J-
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
quote Psyops:I have seen this grip taught at NTC and other schools for years. SO has there been some sort of change regarding this. Secondly. A smaller person has no chance of holding a much bigger opponent by their traps and bicep. It just won’t happen.I wouldn’t say there was any substantial change in protocol. Just preferences to show variation; I know of black belts on both coasts, myself included, who offer MT vartiaion.
I disagree somewhat with your second point. Trap/bicep is not the only clinch in the system. Among the variations I like to offer students include: trap/bicep, trap/tricep, trap/overhook, trap/underhook, trap/wrist, palm to the neck/tricep, palm to the neck/overhook, etc. And yes, each variation assumes different pro’s and con’s, along with different contexts (some of those you see in certain weapon defenses).
The most important component, IMO, is controlling the trap-clavicle-neck-upperchest area. And if the opportunity to clinch isn’t there, then don’t clinch!!
Gross size disparities notwithstanding, trap/bicep or trap/tricep can be maintained. IMO, the key variable, as you stated about MT clinch, is duration:
quote Psyops:The real issue is how long the smaller person remains in that position.One can quickly transition to a LIII leg sweep (hybridized osoto gari), LV shoulder toss, a double leg, or simply disengage from there if the attacker becomes too squirrly (a Wade Allen word).
That being stated, a BIGGER person may also have difficulty sustaining that position if the smaller counterpart has a background and has any fight left (think single legs, duckunders, drags, 2 on 1s).
Bottom line (as you mentioned): pressure-test the techniques and use whatever works.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
quote downforlife76:I’m fairly new to Krav Maga…. But I don’t even know what the “MT grip” is. At NTC, the only grip I’ve learned for throwing a kneee is grabbing the attacker’s trapezius and bicep (well… more side of the arm between the bi and tri), or grabbing the attackers head if you’re going to throw a knee to the face. Could you elaborate for some of us who aren’t as familiar with the terminology?I do agree with you that saying a technique that works is not Krav Maga, especialy when it’s a technique that an instructor has seen taught at the NTC, is probably the wrong way to go about things. If one technique doesn’t work for you and another one does, use it!!! (as long as it’s tacticly sound). One of the things I love about Krav Maga is that it is not a competition sport, so the emphasis is placed on effectiveness, not everyone being a mirror immage of eachother.
:soapbox:J-
What he is referring to is the Muay Tai clinch. Grabbing the person by the back of the head and pulling down while delivering knee strikes.
We have learned it both ways and both IMO are good. Niether way is more right than the other.
Here is a link explaining it.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
quote HazardousSmoker:What he is referring to is the Muay Tai clinch. Grabbing the person by the back of the head and pulling down while delivering knee strikes.We have learned it both ways and both IMO are good. Niether way is more right than the other.
Here is a link explaining it.
Ahhh… Okay. I’ve learned that, but I always thought it was more for knees to the head as opposed to the groin or stomach.
J
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
Thai clinch is great…just make sure you’re grabbing your opponent’s head, not his neck.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
First and foremost when reaching in to do the grab Do Not poke the pad holder in the eye with your pinky tearing his cornea causing several visits to the optometrist. But I digress.
To level 1ish students we want them to get used to the initial grab so we teach the basics of it, when they become more comfortable with it we suggest roll the skin back and grab flesh while keeping your elbow down to prevent the shoot. As they become more advanced we can show the Thai style “bump” with the forearm to the neck then hook around the back of the neck for side head control.
As they get more comfortable you can show left side/ center head clinch / right side and do transition drills between the three.
The only thing I can say that I personally don’t agree with is the back of shirt grab because I don’t think it gives you enough control, but I’ve seen it taught so…
Just my .02
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
I like side control for the reason you mentioned above, and that is that while in front control, people seem to get it into their heads that they want to shoot on you. In general also, it’s better to be at your opponents side than in front of him.
In regards to the OP, I don’t like the idea of “this isn’t Krav Maga”. Sure, some techniques are more effective than others, and we as Krav Maga practitioners try to focus on the best for self defense, but I just don’t like that kind of attitude. It’s fine for traditional martial arts, and I’d even prefer it in another martial art but in Krav I think the conversation should go something like: “Here, try side control instead. In side control the other person can’t blah blah blah, and you might find that it works better for you”. You know, give them a REAL explanation. Everyone’s teaching style is different, but that’s just how my instructors correct me.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
In level 1 classes I generally teach the trap/tri method because it allows the beggining student to learn how to “feel” how to throw the knee (i/e setting the strong leg back and sending it forward with the hips) a little better than the clinch (IMHO). This method also allows a greater level of protection against being taken down (regardless of size). Stating that this technique won’t work with a smaller defender, I think ignores the fact that knees should generally be a follow up attack, after the opponent has been stunned or hurt. I’m not a very big guy, but I’ve never had a problem hitting an asshole with knees, especially after I’ve busted his nose (happened once) or smashed his balls (happened three or four times).
That being said, I think that the clinch option is great, especially as students become more proficient with the basics. It absolutely has it’s place in the system. Tools in the toolbox, right?
I agree with Sean, grabbing clothing is not ideal, as it will generally rip when you least want it to.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
in my first class the instructors taught us both grips and said use the one that works best for you, neither one was right or wrong, just that you had more control over the other person with the mt clinch,one of the first drills we did was with one person kneeing the second while keeping the third person behind the second(so the third person can’t get to you) i think that you have more control over the second person with the neck hold that the arm and back hold (but that’s my opinion), we have 2 teachers at the school i take classes at and 1 likes the arm and back hold and 1 likes the neck grab, but neither tells you that the other hold is wrong (only if you’re doing it wrong)
btw this is the first self defense or martial art that i have taken, so i don’t have to untrain myself from one hold or the other, but i have a opinion, and remember opinoins are like hemroids,sooner or later every asshole has one
russell
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
quote jjk:I’m… I’m going to get hemorrhoids?Yes. 3 of them. Next week. Sorry about your luck, buddy.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
While I agree someone might have more control if they have someone locked in a MT clinch, side control is probably more likely the result if they shoot in for a takedown and you sprawl. No?
I like side control myself. Having someone in a MT clinch puts both of their arms really close to my body. If he’s blocking knees with one arm, he could be drawing a knife with the other and I might not even see it. From the side I can push/pull to keep him off balance and more easily keep him at a distance while one arm is under my control, and the other is farther away. Both ways should be taught because you don’t always get a choice.
Agree with Jeremy… tools in the toolbox.
Re: Proper hand placement when throwing knees
At the NTC we do several variations, Muay Thai and side control. For some of the defenses, it’s also sometimes taught to dig your finger into the attacker’s neck while pushing his head away and controling one of his arms, then knee to the face. That finger in the neck hurts like hell.
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Giantkiller
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