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Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Hey, Dr noonian! Where have you been? We’re missing you in class. Cool info, though. What about the brachial nerve? Would it cause a similar “short circuit” to the brain, or would the reaction be different? Is that target easier to hit than the carotid? Also, someone on that other forum said that hitting the carotid hard isn’t always best, because it would just bend it and maybe not give the desired effect (as far as I understood it).
Or maybe one should just refrain from hitting areas that are hard to pronounce (brachial, carotid) in favor of areas that are easy to pronounce (face, chin)? This could be a new rule of thumb… thumbsup
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
I would say that the main disadvantage is the relatively small area of the carotid. While not tiny, it’s also much smaller than say-the face. Also, while it’s not well protected, it’s not a superficial structure, there’s enough soft tissue over it to be an obstacle. finally, think about how hard it is to even hit the jaw, that’s protruding off the face. now apply that same principle to hitting a narrow vessel that’s invisible behind muscles and fat. I’d rather spend my limited energy and time on hitting the most obvious targets as hard and as many times as possible.
Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Bull1189 – you’re welcome!
Hey GK – been stuck in Bone Marrow Transplant for quite a while, feel like I’ve been transplanted to the hospital myself…To answer the question about the brachial nerve: it’s actually a whole plexus, meaning that all the nerve fibers that control your arms meet there in the deeper soft tissue of the neck/shoulder area coming from your spine (neck area of the spine basically). They meet and mix there and form the actual nerves that innervate your arm muscles (for example, the ulnar nerve gets mixed together by the nerve fibers coming from your 8th neck vertebrae and your first thoracic vertebrae).
Probably aiming at that plexus won’t do you any good either during a fight (sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Again.): it’s pretty deep down in the softtissue and if you’d hit it, it might (might!) give you a tingling sensation down the arm (like when you hit your funny bone) – but that’s about it. Sorry GK, no backfiring into the brain either. I know, I know..it would be cool!Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Man, I don’t think I’ve ever truly realized how useful you are!! 🙂 I never even knew I had a thoracic vertebrae. Good stuff. I remember some time ago some people talked about hitting the brachial nerve and said it might be a good target. But I think Emil is right, better to hit something you can see clearly than some invisible target. Someone also said that if you were to hit the carotid artery on both sides of the neck simultaneously, as with a chop, you could kill someone. True?
Sorry you are stuck at bone marrow. Sounds tedious. Hope you’ll be back soon.
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
quote Bull1189:That video is a great example of why you need to keep your hands up.Yea, that guy is Kuk Sool Won practitioner. If the guy in the video was “aiming” it wasn’t for the temple, but to this pressure point below it and to the back of the head more. I’m tellin ya though, the whole area is pretty good.
Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
In some of the Dog Brothers videos, Marc notes striking under the ear to the trigeminal nerve roughly in the same area. He doesn’t teach stuff that doesn’t work and can’t be demonstrated. I think it comes up in his stuff because in kali and silat you’re using various footwork methods to get a good position, whereas in krav this doesn’t seem as emphasized, so the front profile is more common.
Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
We end up toward the attacker’s side in some situations, so a type of straight punch toward the neck area could work. The trigeminal nerve is yet another target on the neck? Will a strike there “short circuit” the brain also? If there are that many different targets it seems that one strong punch might hit at least one of them, even if it is not very precise.
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
The trigeminal nerve isn’t really on the neck. Its near the jaw hinge under the ear.
Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Yep, can feel some pain digging in there. 🙂
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Hey,
I just got a very interesting response by someone on the other forum about strikes to the neck/carotid area. He said it was okay for me to repost it here as long as I also mention his name. I posted noonian’s response over there, which I thought was very good and this was his reply to it:
” I agree whole heartedly with the response to the brachial plexus. Here is my question for your doctor associate. What are they a doctor of? I want to fully clarify this is my professional opinion and I am not trying to speak for Haganah, I do not agree with her assessment of striking to the carotid artery and this is why.
I openly acknowledge there are pressure receptors within the carotid arteries. The strike is designed to hit the common carotid artery not target receptors. Like she stated receptors are designed to give intelligent information to the heart, beat faster or slow down. Short circuits are not dependant on intelligent commands from the brain. Short circuits are designed to impede logical thought process and trigger involuntary responses.
Bifurcation is a fancy way of saying ìforkî or ìsplitî when referring to arteries branching off.
The common carotid branches into the Internal Carotid Artery which provides oxygen rich blood to the brain, middle ear, Hypophysis and Choroid Plexus. (this is what you are after but not as an objective too difficult to hit and not necessary)
The common carotid also branches into the External Carotid Artery which provides blood to neck, face and skull. (this area sits just below the skin ìwhen you feel for someoneís pulseî you are feeling the External Carotid Artery)
If you strike to the Common Carotid Artery which is ìCommonî to both the Internal and External Artery you are affecting part of the blood flow to the brain.
Your objective is to provide insufficient arterial pressure within the ìCircle of Willisî which will cause fainting or the short circuit effect.
You are not killing the individual because of ìCollateral Circulationî which is a term used to describe ìAnastomosisî fancy way of saying alternate detours of blood flow.
Basically the brain as well as other major organs have a back up plan in the event an arterial cavity is blocked.
If the blood flow is effected for a longer period of time it becomes what an Operator calls a blood choke; where the individual will loose consciousness. Brain damage typically occurs anywhere from 2-8 minutes (there are some debates in the actual time frames) you know those rare cases.
Once Collateral circulation kicks in your recovery is dependant on the duration of time you were deprived of oxygen rich blood, which we have discussed previously, once again it is dependant on variable factors, temperature, health of the heart, etc.
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Chris Ghannam
President, Sark Securities Inc.
Chief Instructor, Sark Security Group R&D
ATC#30″I thought that was a very interesting and informative response, that’s why I thought I’d post it here. I don’t know all that much about human anatomy I must confess, but any comments by anyone here who does?
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
I too know very little about the human anatomy and do not understand most of the medical terms people use here. What I do know is that if you get hit on the side of the neck, below the ear, between the jaw and shoulder, you are going to see stars – or worse.
Re: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
That may be the trigeminal nerve CLFMak was talking about.
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GiantkillerRe: Punch to the carotid artery instead of the face – pros and cons
Hi
Interestingly I think there are gender and size issues here. We tend to teach punching to the throat for smaller adults and women. One reason was (having had an influx of smaller female students), it became apparent that punching to the head of a potentially larger stronger male was more than likley to result in injury to the hand. Especially as they began to increase power through training.
Personally I would palm the face or punch the throat. There is an old martial arts saying from somewhere regarding using hard parts to soft targets and palms to hard targets. Cant remember it now but it seems to apply to krav as well.
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