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Now that this whole CKM issue has been clarified (hopefully), I have a question regarding what we at KMWW learn against what is learned at IKMF.
From what I’ve read, it seems that the IKMF is more closely related to the KM taught to the IDF in Israel, and that the instructors in Israel constantly modify their moves and techniques to make them even more practical and effective in battle, thus passing it on to those who are involved with the IKMF.
My question is, does KMWW have any connections with the IDF, or any other instructors in Israel, which can do the same thing ??
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
My question is, and no offense intended, but why does it matter? Who do you believe is more in tune with the typical threats that face American citizens? Is it an IDF instructor, who trains soldiers with different rules of engagement, different skill sets, different goals, different threats, and different available tools?
I’m curious as to why people feel some “connection” to the IDF is essential to having a progressive system (I’m not saying it isn’t beneficial, and I’m not saying KMW has no such connection.) This is no slight against the IDF or it’s members, I’m just asking why this perception is seemingly pervasive.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
quote Ryan:My question is, and no offense intended, but why does it matter? Who do you believe is more in tune with the typical threats that face American citizens? Is it an IDF instructor, who trains soldiers with different rules of engagement, different skill sets, different goals, different threats, and different available tools?I’m curious as to why people feel some “connection” to the IDF is essential to having a progressive system (I’m not saying it isn’t beneficial, and I’m not saying KMW has no such connection.) This is no slight against the IDF or it’s members, I’m just asking why this perception is seemingly pervasive.
The simple answer is that its continually enhanced based on real combat, be it hand to hand or against weapons
I forgot to mention that I am a police officer, so maybe the threats I face are on a different level than a citizen like yourself
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
I think it is a thing worth thinking about… (wow, I deserve to be slapped for that sentence :box2: )
Since Krav Maga is usually advertised in connection with the IDF it is a valid question. On the other hand… even if IKMF and KMAA had the best contacts within IDF’s KM Derpartment… what does it mean for the civilian sector? I only train “civilian Krav Maga” so nothing would really change for me… what I have though (I train at an IKMF school) is constant evaluation of the techniques in light of new/rising threats and re-evaluation of the commonly taught techniques. (Which does not mean that this is not the case with KMAA, I just don’t know).
Alex
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
Well normally that might be true Vinnie but in this situation I believe Ryan is a certified DT instructor as such he would be familiar with LE tactics. (Ryan feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
In addition to Ryan there are many LE force instructors here in the forums (Jeremy Stafford, Brent W, Brent A, Oneness & his wife, James H & Shannon) and a few who actually gained their BB diplomas from Wingate such as Dave Bluestein.
My point is it’s not fair to single Ryan out because he is a civilian, as head of one of the regional training centers he is actually an instructors instructor.
As such he is more then qualified to speak to these issues.
Its like saying just because Darren is only an assistant DA he shouldn’t be involved with LE training. Arguably he’s one of the most qualified people to teach the material.
KMWW has always been an open system that continually evolves based on real life scenarios that affect American citizens. Its also my understanding that there is a LA based committee that meets monthly to review and revise different techniques based on the original principles we adhere to as students of Imi.
As far as the LE specific material we refer to as the “Force System” I know Jon Pascal is currently working with several different individuals from multiple agencies on revising material and how it affects the Law Enforcement community.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
If I may……
I can tell you that there are some differences. The philosophy of instruction differs as do some of the techniques against weapons, chokes etc…. I won’t get into this now. I have trained with some of the best instructors in the world. KMWW has always been a top notch organization and that is because of its instructors. I do not however believe that KMWW is the only place that one can receive great instruction.
Anyone who has ever trained with Eyal Yanilov and is certified by Eyal to instruct is no doubt a gifted instructor. Modifications have been made to Krav Maga techniques by IKMF that are not taught at KMWW. Two different organizations two different philosophies. The real question is simple. Do you feel that your instructor is providing you with the very latest updates and are these techniques logical? Does the technique follow the principles of Imi? If so then it is Krav Maga!
The IDF question is a bit unfair. Ran Nakash is the chief instructor for the IDF. He has no affiliation with IKMF or KMWW. So is the IDF affiliation critical? No. What is critical is the quality of instruction. Now the names that were listed above are some of the most respected in the country. I have trained with most of them and have the greatest respect for all of them. I don’t care if James H. , Brent W. and Ryan started their own Mickey Mouse club of Krav Maga! These guys are top notch instructors! They are not Israeli. They have not served in the IDF! These guys are great instructors! This is all that matters.
Eyal Yanilov is recognized around the world as one of the top Krav Maga instructors on the planet! His connection to Imi as the source of Krav Maga is undeniable. He was Darren Levine’s instructor. All of these things are facts! Yet these things are only part of the story. All politcal b.s. aside Krav Maga has changed my life. It is all that I wish to do. I have been blessed to train under Roger D’onofrio. He is not Israeli. Yet his understanding of Krav Maga is second to none. I have trained with the top instructors at KMWW. I have also recently completed my first instructor course with IKMF! I am a certified instructor with IKMF and KMWW.
Politics are not important to me. Only the representation of Krav Maga in its truest form matter to me. So our students in Las Vegas are being given the finest instruction that we can offer and our lineage can be directly traced to the founder. Not many schools can say this.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
“The simple answer is that its continually enhanced based on real combat, be it hand to hand or against weapons
I forgot to mention that I am a police officer, so maybe the threats I face are on a different level than a citizen like yourself”
So, you’re telling me that the threats the IDF soldiers face on a daily basis are comparable to those that the average US citizen is likely to face (or LEOs for that matter)? I disagree. I’m not saying there’s no value in it, but it’s certainly not vital. I still contend that there are different rules of engagement, different skill sets, different goals, different threats, and different available tools (as a general rule.)
Yes, Sean, I’ve taught thousands of officers, and I’ve helped to re-write portions of the NCBLET curriculum (and I teach a monthly in-service class), in conjunction with the NC Justice Academy and SCAT Committee.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
I had always heard (from several different sources) that the Krav in the US passed up the Krav in Israel a long time ago. The Israelis go hard and learn major aggression with their Krav but Darren’s group is much more technical. Yes, KMWW classes are aggressive, etc. but they are known to develope techniques and to perfect new techniques much more so than anywhere else.
As an aside Eyal loves to claim to be Darren’s instructor but, from my understanding, this is only barely true. From what I have heard the first time Darren went to Israel Eyal was one of the instructors at the course he attended. Darren’s main instructor was Imi. Imi came to the states during a few summers just to work with Darren. Darren worked a lot with Imi to develop and perfect a lot of the Krav techniques we know today.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
By the way, I am not an LEO, and I don’t claim to know more about LE than LEOs. I have a great respect for them and what they do, and I got into DT training in order to try and provide a service to those put their lives on the line every day. What I DO know, though, is fighting/self defense/H2H, for what it’s worth.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
There have been many posts relating tho the differneces between KMWW and IKMF. Why don’t admin make it a “sticky” like they did the posts on CKM? I realize I’ll probalby get slammed for this question.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
quote CJs Dad:Well normally that might be true Vinnie but in this situation I believe Ryan is a certified DT instructor as such he would be familiar with LE tactics. (Ryan feel free to correct me if Iím wrong)In addition to Ryan there are many LE force instructors here in the forums (Jeremy Stafford, Brent W, Brent A, Oneness & his wife, James H & Shannon) and a few who actually gained their BB diplomas from Wingate such as Dave Bluestein.
My point is itís not fair to single Ryan out because he is a civilian, as head of one of the regional training centers he is actually an instructors instructor.
As such he is more then qualified to speak to these issues.
Its like saying just because Darren is only an assistant DA he shouldnít be involved with LE training. Arguably heís one of the most qualified people to teach the material.
KMWW has always been an open system that continually evolves based on real life scenarios that affect American citizens. Its also my understanding that there is a LA based committee that meets monthly to review and revise different techniques based on the original principles we adhere to as students of Imi.
As far as the LE specific material we refer to as the ìForce Systemî I know Jon Pascal is currently working with several different individuals from multiple agencies on revising material and how it affects the Law Enforcement community.
that was the answer I was looking for…thank you
quote Psyops:If I may……I can tell you that there are some differences. The philosophy of instruction differs as do some of the techniques against weapons, chokes etc…. I won’t get into this now. I have trained with some of the best instructors in the world. KMWW has always been a top notch organization and that is because of its instructors. I do not however believe that KMWW is the only place that one can receive great instruction.
Anyone who has ever trained with Eyal Yanilov and is certified by Eyal to instruct is no doubt a gifted instructor. Modifications have been made to Krav Maga techniques by IKMF that are not taught at KMWW. Two different organizations two different philosophies. The real question is simple. Do you feel that your instructor is providing you with the very latest updates and are these techniques logical? Does the technique follow the principles of Imi? If so then it is Krav Maga!
The IDF question is a bit unfair. Ran Nakash is the chief instructor for the IDF. He has no affiliation with IKMF or KMWW. So is the IDF affiliation critical? No. What is critical is the quality of instruction. Now the names that were listed above are some of the most respected in the country. I have trained with most of them and have the greatest respect for all of them. I don’t care if James H. , Brent W. and Ryan started their own Mickey Mouse club of Krav Maga! These guys are top notch instructors! They are not Israeli. They have not served in the IDF! These guys are great instructors! This is all that matters.
Eyal Yanilov is recognized around the world as one of the top Krav Maga instructors on the planet! His connection to Imi as the source of Krav Maga is undeniable. He was Darren Levine’s instructor. All of these things are facts! Yet these things are only part of the story. All politcal b.s. aside Krav Maga has changed my life. It is all that I wish to do. I have been blessed to train under Roger D’onofrio. He is not Israeli. Yet his understanding of Krav Maga is second to none. I have trained with the top instructors at KMWW. I have also recently completed my first instructor course with IKMF! I am a certified instructor with IKMF and KMWW.
Politics are not important to me. Only the representation of Krav Maga in its truest form matter to me. So our students in Las Vegas are being given the finest instruction that we can offer and our lineage can be directly traced to the founder. Not many schools can say this.
lets not put words in my mouth…I never said that an instructor had to be Israeli to be good
quote Ryan:“The simple answer is that its continually enhanced based on real combat, be it hand to hand or against weaponsI forgot to mention that I am a police officer, so maybe the threats I face are on a different level than a citizen like yourself”
So, you’re telling me that the threats the IDF soldiers face on a daily basis are comparable to those that the average US citizen is likely to face (or LEOs for that matter)? I disagree. I’m not saying there’s no value in it, but it’s certainly not vital. I still contend that there are different rules of engagement, different skill sets, different goals, different threats, and different available tools (as a general rule.)
Yes, Sean, I’ve taught thousands of officers, and I’ve helped to re-write portions of the NCBLET curriculum (and I teach a monthly in-service class), in conjunction with the NC Justice Academy and SCAT Committee.
I think there are some threats that both the IDF and LEO’s face…..I’m not saying that they are identical
quote Ryan:By the way, I am not an LEO, and I don’t claim to know more about LE than LEOs. I have a great respect for them and what they do, and I got into DT training in order to try and provide a service to those put their lives on the line every day. What I DO know, though, is fighting/self defense/H2H, for what it’s worth.I didnt question your credentials, Ryan
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
No, I know you didn’t, and I didn’t mention them in my initial post, only after Sean brought it up. I only posted again because I didn’t want to come off like I knew an LEO’s job better than an LEO.
All the best.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
OKD,
Have you seen Darren’s certificate? I think Eyal awarded his rank. Has Darren ever denied that Eyal was his teacher? No.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
Psy, I’ve got certificates signed by people I have never met, don’t you? Darren respects Eyal, of course. The point is that Eyal was not the one who made Darren what he is, as Eyal likes to hint at. I’m sure he helped but as far as being his main instructor, no.
Re: Question about KMWW and IKMF
Sounds like we are splitting hairs here. Coming from JKD, you see this a lot in the JKD lineage of who learned from Bruce Lee directly. Obviously only a few learned directly from Bruce although much more claim they did. Dan Inosanto is now probably the most highly regarded (arguably) JKD authority and even he gets challenged as to what he teaches. Anyone in the Inosanto lineage is thought of as having the “real” JKD but even then, there is an “Original JKD” that disagrees. As Krav grows over time, we’ll see more of this. We are only 2nd/3rd generation KM and we see it. THIS is why organizations like KMWW (and others) are important. For people 20 and 30 years from now there will be a much clearer record of who is who (there will still be disagreements).
I’d also like to say I completely agree you dont have to go to Israel to learn KM. Not saying it wouldnt be great, just not necessary. No need to go to Japan to learn Judo or Brazil to learn JJ.
Just my .02 (worth only .01 with high oil prices).
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