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I was just wondering if Krav Maga teaches any submission holds or chokes. I have the tape set and the books and am planning on training after I graduate college this spring. It looks like an awesome martial art but it didn’t talk about submissions at all. I always wanted to learn how to make someone tap like in BJJ or UFC. If anyone could answer my question I would really appreciate it. Thanks
JoeyI’m kinda new to KM but my response would be that if you want to \”learn how to make someone tap like BJJ or UFC\” then take BJJ because you are completely missing the intention of what KM is all about.
My advice to you, prior to entering KM or any other martial training, is to sit down with an instructor and understand the history and philosophy of the style. Why does it exist. Then make your decision and go from there.
Someone more experienced in KM can feel free to educate me if my understanding is incorrect.
reality oriented
Submission based on real situations, yes. Arm bar is being taught but quoted \”Not recommended to fight on the ground with opponent\”. Or may someone else kick your head while submitting one. Most submission techniques that I know has to be on ground.
Otherwise break a finger, shoulder joint just enough to neutralize threat. Krav Maga complimenting with BJJ(or other submission arts) to me, is a good combination.
I can’t see much of a historical approach related to submission/choke techniques in KM, however I learned it takes 1 round (3 to 5 minutes) to arm bar a skilled opponent. Even this doesn’t happen very often.
I don’t see myself submitting an assailant in a matter of 5, 10 seconds time span, and KM is about neutralizing threat within seconds.Many fights end up on the ground whether the defender likes it or not, so KM teaches you how to deal with that. But the objective is not to demonstrate your superior skill by getting the other guy to cry uncle. It is to do serious, serious damage as viciously, yet efficiently and effectively as you can in as brief a time frame as possible so that you can quickly and safely retreat.
KM is for real life – it is not a sport, and it is not goal oriented towards anything but getting home safely. As I am sure you know, \”tapping out\” in grappling signals the end of a round, a way for the opponent to say \”okay, you got me\” before any harm is done. That is not what happens in real life, so it is not a focus KM maintains. Grappling has rules. KM does not.
With that said, yes, they teach both chokes and grappling, both as defenses and counterattacks, standing and on the ground, with submission as the pseudo – objective for a few of the ground defenses, and all with an eye on whether or not the moves being taught are the best way to get the job done.
Re:
My school, as well as probably quite a few others, does a separate groundwork class. Personally, I really like the groundwork. I think that Krav could use a little more of it in the curriculum. Plus, it’s great exercise and you can really see how it feels to struggle with some one. I completely understand the philosophy of Krav though, but I also feel like, if you’re fighting and you end up on the ground with the guy’s arm in a perfect location to apply an armbar, doesn’t it make more sense to go that route than struggling to get back up? I think only a combination of standup and ground fighting can be successful.
Hey, Glass.
Do you have any type of grappling background, like wrestling? Anyways, like wim mentioned, several KM schools also offer other grappling alternatives, from BJJ to mixed grappling to submission wrestling. Find out what is offered and you may be able to find the combination under the same roof.
Have you ever heard of vale tudo? This is more fighting-inclined and integrates strikes from standing and the ground as well as submissions. If you’re not too concerned about self-defense, you may want to check it out. I know a few Krav schools whose fighting classes are moving in that direction.
wim,
Did you have a chance to catch Ryan and Jeff when they came down last month?
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yeah, I was there. Good seminar. I’d be happy to do one of those every weekend… well, maybe every other weekend. I’m getting older and I don’t seem to recover as quick as I’d like. I was sore for quite a few days after that…
Wim, I’m glad you enjoyed the workshop (we’ll be at KMDC in January, doing a lot of different things.) We weren’t sure if you guys \”enjoyed\” it or not. 😀 😕 😉
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I might have to check that out. I really wish we would’ve had a better turnout for you guys. It was a little embarassing. Maybe every one was busy during the long weekend. Heck, that’s no excuse though, I just got married that Friday and I was still there… Good stuff though, thanks a bunch for coming… and for bringing some eye-candy with you 😉
Yes, we have an entourage, but don’t be fooled, they can all hold their own just fine. 😈 8)
Regarding turnout, etc., it happens. No harm, no foul. We have expressed some concerns that we had, but I’m glad to hear that the training was enjoyed (at least by you!) If you can make it to KMDC, please try, you will get to see many things that we planned on doing at your place, but were unable to cover. If you like stress drills and real-world application, this is not to be missed!
Oh, and congratulations!
restraint?
to be honest, looking at the original question, if somebody is trying to do me some serious harm, why on earth would i want to stay on the floor with them any longer than necessary? KM isn’t a sport for TV, it’s a matter of life. (that would make a GREAT slogan for someone! 😉 )
Foxy
I’ve had very little experience with Krav Maga thus far, attended a few classes, studied up on the history of it and actually partake in a self defense class with my BJJ instructor where he utilizes KM techniques but I’m seeing on here that you guys are misunderstanding the point behind BJJ.
The point in BJJ, this is only applicable with one opponent, is to take the enemy out of his own element and take him into an arena where more than likely you rule. The ground is your ocean, you’re a shark and most guys can’t swim, understand? The most dangerous most fighters are, especially untrained, is standing up in the free movement phase. Now you wouldn’t always be going to the ground in a fight, mainly if there’s more than one opponent, but if you were tackled, I can imagine you’d want to get up as quick as possible and having grappling and ground fighting skills can help you immensely.
There are however BJJ standup techniques and clinch techniques, a lot like \”shoot fighting\” or Vale Tudo but the whole \”submission\” and \”rules\” aspect of BJJ lies in the theory that one you have to practice safely of course but one reason that BJJ is much more effective compared to some other arts, I’m not talking about KM at this point, is mainly the fact that these techniques can be trained safely so it’s easier for a student to get the technique down pat but to also understand what it’d be like to really apply the move to someone who’s completely resisiting and fighting back. It was really this thought that led to Judo’s first inception, the fact that original Japanese Jujitsu had so many so called \”dangerous\” katas and techniques and without live training, and techniques that were so called dangerous, no one could even practice those techniques safely. The nice thing about an arm bar is someone can tap before it breaks but if you wanted to, you could very easily extended the arm a bit more and break it. The whole sport aspect of BJJ, the only reason it really is a sport, is for the training and for the points awarded that help a student understand how to achieve the advantage positioning
Now I’m not talking bad about KM at all, in fact I respect it immensely and it’s one of the main reasons I’m cross training in it with BJJ. Just thought I’d make a point about BJJ. Thanks.
Posted by Simhamukha:
\”\”\”\”\”\”But the objective is not to demonstrate your superior skill by getting the other guy to cry uncle. It is to do serious, serious damage as viciously, yet efficiently and effectively as you can in as brief a time frame as possible so that you can quickly and safely retreat. \”\”\”\”\”\”Serious damage as quickly as possible- what can be more effective than a submission hold which cripples an opponent?
\”\”\”\”\”\”KM is for real life – it is not a sport, and it is not goal oriented towards anything but getting home safely. As I am sure you know, \”tapping out\” in grappling signals the end of a round, a way for the opponent to say \”okay, you got me\” before any harm is done. That is not what happens in real life, so it is not a focus KM maintains. Grappling has rules. KM does not. \”\”\”\”\”
Rules only apply when fighting in a grappling tournament. KM has rules when practicing too (or do you really gouge each others eyes out when training?). Just because someone’s a grappler doesnt mean they will or that they have to fight according to grappling rules when they’re in a fight.
Kicking a downed opponent is against the rules in kickboxing, but I never see Vanderlei Silva or Murilo Ninja having a problem doing it when they fight in MMA.The other thing you need to take into consideration is that they reason why the person taps as to say \”yeah ok, you got me\” is because he doesnt want his limb to break. Its not like they’re being generous and giving the guy a victory, or that they’re giving in to pain- they have two choices- tap out, or have your elbow/knee/shoulder broken in half. (A good example would be the recent fight with Mir and Sylvia.)
Chokes are even more effective, since it doesnt matter how tough you are- you’re going to pass out unconcious at which point you have the option of killing the person.
Just because you’re leaving the option for submission holds available doesnt mean you cant pound the ever living shit out of someone when you get them down.
Poste by taikei:
\”\”\”\”\”\”Arm bar is being taught but quoted \”Not recommended to fight on the ground with opponent\”. Or may someone else kick your head while submitting one.\”\”\”\”\”\”It takes about 2 seconds time to fall back and break someone’s elbow when you’ve caught the armbar and you’ve severely injured one attacker. If there are others, they can very well kick you in the head whether or not you attempt an armbar.
\”\”\”\”\”\”\”I can’t see much of a historical approach related to submission/choke techniques in KM, however I learned it takes 1 round (3 to 5 minutes) to arm bar a skilled opponent. Even this doesn’t happen very often.
I don’t see myself submitting an assailant in a matter of 5, 10 seconds time span, and KM is about neutralizing threat within seconds.\”\”\”\”\”\”\”It can take even more to knock an opponent out- according to these statistics, its much easier to catch someone in a submission hold than it is to knock them out.
go to: http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightendings_ratio.htm
Overall finishing method statistics
Percentage Submission = 46.62
Percentage KO/TKO = 26.74If you dont see yourself submitting someone in a matter of seconds, thats simply a matter of preference and training- I dont see myself knocking someone out on the feet in a few seconds either (seeing as you’re a striker, you may though) but I can see myself applying a joint lock or choke hold in a matter of seconds (seeing as Im a grappler.
Posted by foxy:
\”\”\”\”\”\”\”to be honest, looking at the original question, if somebody is trying to do me some serious harm, why on earth would i want to stay on the floor with them any longer than necessary? \”\”\”\”\”\”\”Once again, thats merely a matter of preference- if you’ve gotten into a fight, lets assume you traded shots before eventually clinching and going down. Now, suppose you’re primarily a grappler with limited striking skills and your opponent got the better of the exchange on the feet, whereas you know you
I had to get into this converstation. I think it is an unfair to pull statistics or examples of pro-style MMA fights when talking about effective street fighting. Let’s be honest here, most of those guys have trained for years, and at the pro level, most only train or teach. If you want to see how effective people are who have mostly a BBJ background, watch some amatuer MMA fights. I have noticed most fighters at this level have little or no striking skills and the fights drag on and on. If the opportunity presents itself, of course I am going to take an arm or an elbow, but don’t think a person with a broken arm can’t continue the fight. Being a cop, I have seen guys do some crazy stuff with broken bones. Plus, I don’t like to be on the ground with anyone longer than I need to be. I constantly drill this into the guys I train at work. I am very comfrotable ground fighting or stand-up fighting and love training in both styles, but it is my opponent’s friends I worry about.
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