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Hello all,
Little background on the situation and then I’ll get to the meat of the post.
Saturday in my BJJ class we focused primarily on self-defense situations and the BJJ approach to such. My instructor explained how getting in close neutralizes a lot of capabilities people have as strikers, regardless of their power.
Example: A lot of people feel that a knee is the end all solution to someone shooting in on them for a take down. (Note: I realize a takedown by an attacker is highly unlikely) My instructor asked me to knee him as hard as I could while he tried to take me down. Using no sparring gear except for mouth pieces I let him have it as he shot in. I’m usually regarded as one of the more powerful strikers in the class and I had absolutely NO power.
Same thing went for the clinch; he had me strike him as hard as I could while he wrapped his arms around my midsection as I pummeled his kidneys, ribs and back, elbows and all. My instructor is pretty hardcore and a glutton for pain, but it still brought an interesting perspective.
Do you REALLY think the techniques taught by Krav are realistic enough?
My class does NO sparring and uses a VERY controlled environment for chokes and multiple attackers. I think something is fundamentally wrong with this. If we train how we fight, and we rely on reaction taught my muscle memory, to the point of where it becomes instinct are we training ourselves to react to a controlled environment?
I realize the risk of injuries are high in something like this, and it places a big risk to the participants, but isn’t that what fighting is about anyways?
It just seems to me that we train for self defense like its some orchestrated, controlled dance when in reality a fight is so dynamic and chaotic that even the best fighter in the world can be finished with one punch.
/end rambling.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
You bring up some very good points, but before replying intelligently I think we need to know a little more about your situation. Are you in a level one class? That would explain the emphasis on control and lack of sparring. Why no striking to the groin or face in the clinch? Kicks to the shin and knee, as well as foot stomps can create distance to allow for better strikes. Clinch fighting is an art unto itself, and one could study it for years and still not have it all figured out. The knee to counter a takedown attempt is a matter of timing, not power, so it’s not suprising that you were not able to pull it off. Even high level practitioners usually just go for a sprawl and maybe a crossface. I’m a little unclear on whether or not you actually connected to his face with your knee or the top of your thigh, there’s a huge difference.
As far as the techniques and the way Krav is taught, if your instructor follows the principles and format as presented at the NTC, the level of aggression, chaos, and “aliveness” in your training will increase as you progress until you get to the point that the class is as close to an actual “event” as any traing could possibly be.
This is a great thread, I’m sure others will have more to offer.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
To echo what Mr Stafford said, I think its really dependant on your level of training and the intensity of which the material is presented.
I think it’s only going to be as realistic as the scenario that you’re given.
If a groin shot (or several) are not working somehow then either your training partner isn’t being cooperative or you need to actually strike them into pain compliance.
Now out of common courtesy and safety in training we purposely do not take things to the level that it sometimes requires making our training partner do a realistic response. Its not as if I give a groin kick or knee it doesn’t work and can go to the eyes.
So far I have yet to see anything in the system up to level 5 that a 120lb woman can’t do effectively against a man. I’ve trained in NY with the pretty blonde in the above banner picture and she’s tiny.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
quote Benelli:Iíve trained in NY with the pretty blonde in the above banner picture and sheís tiny.LOL Thatís Jarrett A., she knocks me around like a piÒata
Good comments guys, keep them coming~
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
quote Nixxon:Do you REALLY think the techniques taught by Krav are realistic enough?It just seems to me that we train for self defense like its some orchestrated, controlled dance when in reality a fight is so dynamic and chaotic that even the best fighter in the world can be finished with one punch.
/end rambling.
Well I know that Krav techniques would have helped me when I was attacked at work a few years ago. I didn’t have the mindset or knowledge to respond appropriately. A couple months later I started training at the local Krav gym.
Even now just going throuh the defenses, plucks and strikes at home help to keep me in that mind set where I’m confident that I could at least respond to the attack and get away.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Jeremy,
I’m a level two student but where I train doesn’t have much of a life after level one, so often times I’m in a level one class. I realize and notice that a lot of people in my class are taking it as more of a fitness boot camp than an actual self defense, so many of them are unprepared for situations that I’m actually preparing for.
I kneed my instructor with the top of my knee. I also understand that he was prepared for what I was doing, so in essence that situation was controlled as well.
I’m not sure how the curriculum in NTC is presented other than the info that I’ve seen here. I actually spoke to my instructor about becoming a level one instructor and he said that he believes I’m more than qualified and my conditioning is excellent. Unfortunately I just don’t think I’ll be in the state long enough to make the investment of sending me through training worth it for him, so I don’t want to waste his time/money.
Not to steal a quote or anything but I would love to sometimes remind people in my class that “This is Krav Maga, not scrapbooking.” I’m a powerful striker and often times when people are told to pair up everyone averts my eyes. I don’t see a lot of aggression and fire within the hearts of the people in my class and I honestly think that it cheats those who take their training seriously, most are just going through the motions. I purposefully go for the guys who are bigger, stronger, faster, and go harder. It challenges me to improve my game and places me immediately at a disadvantage which is perfect for self defense in my opinion. Worst case scenario training. Thats not to say that there are students who aren’t serious, but it seems like the majority falls into the above catagory.
Maybe I’m just too Type A and need to relax, but when I’m training for my safety and the safety of my family I would like to be prepared for the reality of that situation.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
quote Freelancer:Well I know that Krav techniques would have helped me when I was attacked at work a few years ago. I didn’t have the mindset or knowledge to respond appropriately. A couple months later I started training at the local Krav gym.Even now just going throuh the defenses, plucks and strikes at home help to keep me in that mind set where I’m confident that I could at least respond to the attack and get away.
Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. I think Krav’s most important lesson is awareness and aggression. In fact that is my favorite part and I also find myself in a defensive mindset should the need arise. I’m questioning more on the technique of instruction, flow of class and utilization of principals (strikes, combos, defensive techniques etc).
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Did you happen to catch unstopable1’s comment on the L3 class he watched? I know his review was more of the fight class he took but he also mentioned the intensity of the multiple attacker scenario drills. Maybe he can expand on his thoughts of their realism.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLQcp1FhMZ4
if the knee connects to the face, that tends to happen. while it is a controlled environment being an mma event, imo it is pretty close to “live”. but like Mr. Stafford said “go for a sprawl” is more likely the response.i’ve had the pleasure (i’m not sure if that is sarcastic or not b/c my shoulders still hurt from being americana-ed so much) of working with a couple of black belts in bjj and a red belt, and if the rules are no strikes to the eyes or groin, then i don’t have a chance – but if we are doing live drills, even with a cup, i’ve been able to create space with a groin strike or eye gouge.
again take it as my personal opinion, and i’m certainly no expert, but i train with former military and law enforcement and they are impressed by the effectiveness and realism of the Krav.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Allow me to make some disclaimers:
1-I also cross train in jits and judo (and hopefully kali/arnis soon)
2-EVERY KM class, in this black belt’s humble opinion, should include some elements of chaos.I like to structure my classes similiar to what you see in most jits/judo classes:
-hard warmup
-technical review
-pressure testYou have to know how to apply an arm bar, uchi mata, liver shot, derive calculus, severe open the dura/pia/arachnoid mater, before actually trying it in real time and under stress.
The onus, IMO, IS ON THE INSTRUCTOR to keep the drills interesting, contact-infused, CHAOTIC like you said, and slightly scary.
My recommendation is for you to talk to your instructor about your concerns to see if changes are possible. Who knows? You could likely be voicing the thoughts collectively shared by your students, or you could be the extreme, hard-core psycho who can’t get enough contact.
Only one way to find out.
Keep us posted.
And finally:
“A lot of people feel that a knee is the end all solution to someone shooting in on them for a take down.”
Uh..sources? Can’t remember ever hearing that at instructor training. Matter of fact, don’t think I have ever heard a Krav instructor say this.
I’m with Stafford with this one. For takedown defenses, sprawls/cross faces/quarter nelsons/snaps downs/underhook-overhooks/cow-catchers are what I would prescribe initially. Tomo nage and drop seoi for the more grappling inclined.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
quote La Revancha:(and hopefully kali/arnis soon)**cough**
Actually thats on topic if you think about how realistic our last session was. Next time we can add shock knives for more “live energy”
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Great thread.
Aggression and chaos has been one of my concerns in classes. I have not seen any of these integrated in class from what i can tell, apart from “come on work hard” ect… when hitting pads or sparring I don’t know when is this going to come in. Is this something at higher than L1 drills? It seems more of what Nixxon described ppl going through the motion movement ect…
I would love to see after we learn a technique like one of the knife ones, a person get full gear on Mask, Midsection pads, groin cup ect… attack with a knife and the students use the technique under realistic speed and realism.
**I would love to see an NTC trained facility here in Orlando.!!
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Rev,
I guess I don’t really have a source for the end all knee, but it seems to be a primary consensus with alot of people I talk with.
I’ve actually stopped taking Krav for the past 2 weeks because of a few reasons. This is purely in my situation.
A) No life after level 1
– I think that as a student I should constantly be reviewing the material from the previous level, but after a few months of not learning anything new it tends to become stagnentB) Students without aggression/going through the movement
– Really comes purely to instructor on this one in my opinion. My instructor does always beat into everyones head for more aggression but the overall attitude seems to be students going through the motion. I think part of this is due to the lack of Krav instructors. Its hard for them to run a level 1 and 2 class at one time with 1 instructor.C) I’m doing BJJ
– I feel like I get alot more “real” practice with this. I know that practicing Krav is not really something that can be practice with live energy but damn I wish it could be.I’m not unhappy with my situation at all. Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate my instructors, value thier opinion and as one of the now older Krav students I hope they value mine. I may just talk with them and see the result. They are all pretty hardcore dudes. One of the owners of the gym went through his level one phase when he was like…. 66 years old.
I really wish that I knew when I would be leaving AZ so that I could present my case and let the owner make the decision if his investment to train me would be worth it to him. I think that I’ve got alot of ideas that could really make classes fun and challanging, I also love instructing too. Pity I can’t capitalize on any of that.
Re: Reality of "Live Energy"
Or, maybe I should just go to Sherman Oaks and find out who these badasses are and get my ass handed to them. Maybe I’ll come to appreciate the gentler side of KM…..?
Cupcakes anyone?
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