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Well Brian lets think for a minute what will be typical answer to what you said you would do.
The assaillant is drunken young male in a bar and his friends are watching him. You had an argument about whether or not you looked at his girlfriend (who is also watching btw.)
Now when you do this:quote :palms outward fingers spread in front of face somewhat) and feet in fight stance, saying loudly, \”Hey whoa, I don’t want any trouble here.Is he more likely to respond a)\”Oh, well that is ok then, have a nice evening\” and go back to his table and his snickering friends.
or b) \”Well you little mother****** you got trouble.\”Think about it, which is more likely?
Normally saying things like that will only escalate the situation. Your opponent usually wants to submit you so let him have his way. Appear submissive, scared even. He is more likely to leave you alone. The problem is our own ego: It is hard to be a whimpering pussy when you have trained in martial arts and you have your own ego on the line, you’re friends watching etc. You have to overcome that and you will be able to de-escalate most situations.\”It is hard to be a whimpering pussy when you have trained in martial arts and you have your own ego on the line, you’re friends watching etc. You have to overcome that and you will be able to de-escalate most situations.\”
I don’t think that whimpering in that type of a situation is a good idea. A lot of bullies feed on fear and if they see you whimpering, they will escalate the situation. Being aggressive is bad too, because that will escalate the situation as well. The best thing to do is to put your palms out and say in a calm and confident voice that you don’t want trouble. If he approaches after you told him that you don’t want trouble, then more aggressive action is justified. If he leaves you alone, then you have accomplished what you wanted to.
I have to disagree. First, Ville didn’t mean to literally whimper(though that might work in some context). However if you feed the ego, you shrink the guard. And if you try to crush the ego, you raise the guard. Its an inverse relationship.
Ville is right on, egos get us in a lot of trouble. My thinking has always been that my friends know what I am capable of and also know I will not start or fall into trouble, but have to be forced into it. I could care less what the rest of the crowd thinks of me.
I was going to start a separate thread with this but since this has turned into a discussion of when to react and when to sit I will write it here. This happened to an aircrew in my air national guard unit two weeks ago.
First, they are in Latin America and returning on a tour van from a day snorkeling. There is a Spanish speaking driver and an interpreter/tour guide in the right front seat. The aircrew is spread out over the next three bench seats in the back, the first bench facing rearward.
The van is run off the road and the driver stops. An armed man shoots the front of the van twice then pulls the driver out and throws him in the truck. He then gets in and starts driving up and down this deserted road at high speed looking for his buddies. They are driving fast and he is pointing the gun at various people and yelling in Spanish. The other pick up disappears but is soon found along with a van of eight armed ëmen.í (The one in the back of the truck looked twelve and had a high power hunting riffle. Now, they pull the interpreter out and he is replaced by a calmer armed man who starts rummaging through their stuff. They are driven out into the jungle and tied up with their shoe laces while the bandits take any thing of value. They comply and attempt to make cell phone calls while being drivenÖ.. The men leave them in the jungle and disable their van, where they hike out six miles at night in the jungle.
The discussion in the squadron is what the outcome would have been had I been thereÖ. Yes, I could have disarmed the driver while he was driving but at a high speed, that would more than likely cause a crash. Unless someone trained was either driving or in the front seat they were not in a good tactical position to end the attack as it began. Since this is Latin America and NOT the Middle East, in all likelihood these guys are either one, wanting your stuff, or two wanting to ransom the crew. After getting a detailed debrief on the whole scenario, I donít think I would have done much different than they did. There were tactical options available, but very few had a high PS, (Probability of survival.)
Actually, had I not had a conference I would have been on the trip, and might well be telling a different story or for that matter might have been killed. In hind sight, they all came out ok minus a few digi cams and wallets so they did the right thing. You really never know what the right thing to do is until you have done it and it workedÖ.
JC
Re:
quote \”Ville\:Well Brian lets think for a minute what will be typical answer to what you said you would do.The assaillant is drunken young male in a bar and his friends are watching him. You had an argument about whether or not you looked at his girlfriend (who is also watching btw.)
Now when you do this:quote :palms outward fingers spread in front of face somewhat) and feet in fight stance, saying loudly, \”Hey whoa, I don’t want any trouble here.Is he more likely to respond a)\”Oh, well that is ok then, have a nice evening\” and go back to his table and his snickering friends.
or b) \”Well you little mother****** you got trouble.\”Think about it, which is more likely?
Normally saying things like that will only escalate the situation. Your opponent usually wants to submit you so let him have his way. Appear submissive, scared even. He is more likely to leave you alone. The problem is our own ego: It is hard to be a whimpering pussy when you have trained in martial arts and you have your own ego on the line, you’re friends watching etc. You have to overcome that and you will be able to de-escalate most situations.Well, first of all that would never happen, I don’t drink or hang out in bars 😀 Second of all what do you suggest? You say be submissive, How? Maybe I can’t be a \”whimpering pussy\” because I ‘ve never been trained to be one, can you suggest a school? LOL, JK.
I will end this discussion like this:Arguing on the internet in like Running a race in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you’re still a retard…
Have a great day!
<<<<Well Brian most of the experts nowadays actually encourage appearing passive, submissive even. In most cases it de-escalates the fight much better than \”Standing up for yourself!\” Talking like a victim usually satisfies the attacker and makes it harder for him to go physical. >>>
What the hell have you been smoking?
Lamb I don’t smoke anything.
But I try to read a lot. Perhaps you should try to read more too…
Try reading the works of leading self defense experts like Richard Dimitri, Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung etc. and you will see what this ego thing and APPEARING to be submissive is about…Brian although you ended conversation let me answer your question:
quote :Second of all what do you suggest? You say be submissive, How?Lets take the same scenario (the drunk at the bar, although you do not visit bars.)
Whatever he is accusing you of: staring at his girl, taking he’s seat, cutting in front of him in line etc. Try agreeing with him.
\”Is that blonde your girlfriend? I’m sorry I thought I recognized her from my high school days but obviously I was mistaken, I am so sorry, can I buy you a drink? Sorry I stared at her, I didn’t mean to disrespect either of you\”\”You were waiting to be served and I cut in front of you? Oh sorry my bad, my mistake I didn’t see you. Sorry bro, go right ahead.\”
I could go on with these imaginary discussions but imagine the reaction of the average drunken ego maniac who has his friends watching the encounter. He can return to the table as the \”winner.\” He can be proud of himself.
Yes there are situations where appearing submissive can be bad. This is however much more rarer. It is also a cultural thing, in Brazil for example from what I have heard you should never appear submissive. But in most western cultures if the ego jocks see you as a victim they are not likely to go physical because either:
a) They do not get a reason to go physical. They will get physical if you challenge them by being firm and hence give them excuse \”See this guy is a loudmouth, he thinks he is Steven Seagal…\”
b) They do not see you \”worthy\” enough to go physical with.<<<\”Is that blonde your girlfriend? I’m sorry I thought I recognized her from my high school days but obviously I was mistaken, I am so sorry, can I buy you a drink? Sorry I stared at her, I didn’t mean to disrespect either of you\” >>>
That’s not submission and passivity, that’s a decelerating technique. Submission and passivity as applied to physical altercations involves giving the power over to the attacker, leaving it up to him how/when/where to proceed which is not what is occurring here. I think we’re probably arguing over semantics.
Everything has its place, but some things have to be left up to the individual that is in that situation. I have a stack of books here next to me that state NEVER EVER be passive or submissive unless you are using it as a ploy, but they caution against that because it is very dangerous and very ineffective. If you really believe the person is only going to rape (not kill) you, submission and passivity might be okay since most rapists don’t kill, same as for pickpocket and mugging and used to be for home burglaries/robberies but that last might be changing for all I know. The statisitics are on your side I suppose.
One of my favorite books is \”Secrets of Street Survival–Israeli Style. Staying Alive in a Civilian War Zone.\” by Eugene Sockut. My edition is 1995 softcover, dunno if it’s still available.
I don’t think anyone advocates \”Come here *** and get some, I’ll….\” common sense says it’s an accelerating tactic. I’v done it and gotten away with it but I think I was lucky and don’t plan to do it again.
Interesting story FFDO! Good thing they all survived, but it also could have ended differently. What if the attackers would have shot them in the head after they bound their hands with shoe laces? I think being in that situation I’d expect the worst, inside the jungle, far from help. If they had been shot, maybe no one would have ever found their bodies and there would have been no witnesses to the crime that had been committed.
On the other hand, if they were all armed and the airmen weren’t, trying to fight back could have also resulted in loss of life. So it’s a tough call. Always easier to second guess.
This passive vs aggressive discussion brings to mind the \”video of the week\” from two weeks ago. The one of the bus driver sitting in his seat, while some enraged passenger kicks and punches him. The bus driver couldn’t have been more passive, which, in this case, seemed to encourage the attacker and he kept giving stronger and stronger attacks. Maybe in that case, being a bit firmer with the enraged guy might have helped? On the other hand, might have made him even angrier. In the end, the bus driver didn’t seem to be seriously injured, although he could have been with all of those kicks and punches to the head.
My main expeirence with this was a drunking Wrestler outside a party. I set up a non aggresive stance that resembled a MT stance, palms out, and just inched into his personal space. I said, \”No one here is gonna fight you\” as I gestered for him to back up. He didn’t like me in his space but also didn’t see an easy way in either. More to that story but I have told it before. he may have recognized my top knot and knew who I was too.
Another time A Big Fool cut in front of everyone inside a B of A (bank). He actually cut me off as I was walking to my teller window. I got right up behind him and said \”excuse me sir, but you cut me off\” he said \”You best back the Fu$k up off me.\” I stayed in his space and we had a little verbal exchange, about the big line, we all waited he can too….He was just outside the distance line and backing up and kinda did one push toward my shoulder. I said. \”You just assulted me. You see that(too the bank tellers), I wanna press charges.\” This guy started in with all this \”thats not assult, your crazy man\”, as he left the bank in a hurry. Musta had a record allready….
Small town, no bank guards. I guess most people would say I should have just let him do it. I could tell that he did it every day, trying to deposit money by 4:00 pm (it was about 4:08), by the way he talked with the tellers as he walked in and cut into the line. I started WT years ago after witnessing this kind of Bullying and was powerless to intercede. Sometimes you just can’t be the victim by being witness anymore.
When they tell you to knell down, or try to tie your hands behind your back, I say it is time to unload on them…..
Well Lambs I guess we just read different books since the stack I have tells that it is a very good tactic to de-escalate and appear to be submissive.
But then again I think this explains a lot:
quote :\”Secrets of Street Survival–Israeli Style. Staying Alive in a Civilian War Zone.\”True, appearing submissive in a civilian was zone might not be a good idea.
Glad I do not live there.Perhaps I am just too picky with words, but I don’t like using the word \”submissive.\”
I know that both Ville and Ryan are little more interested in de-escalation tactics than I am. I agree with de-escalation — as long as the defender is not thinking passively and is ready to act aggressively when the time comes.
As far as acting submissively, there are also indications that appearing submissive empowers or encourages the other person to dominate. This is often true in rape situations.
In addition, interviews with convicts indicate that they often choose victims who look meek, passive, or who appear to lack self confidence.
It is true that criminals look for victims.
Therefore it is important not to look like one: Walk confidently, scan your surroundings etc. But this is the avoidance part, not the de-escalation part.
If you are still \”chosen\” despite all that avoidance and precautions then it usually is better to appear to be submissive (appear being the keyword here.)
Also not every opponent is a criminal as such. They might be just the random ego jocks who are just looking to bully someone, why give them the extra incentive? Instead appear calm, agree with them as much as possible, perhaps even appear scared. That is what they want so give it to them. They will find it much harder to go physical since you have not given them reason to do so (Blauers \”Pressure cooker\” theory.)Of course every situation is different and requires different tactics. John brought up rape which imo is a good example of how feigning compliance can be used. (I’m not sure but I think we covered this before also on some other thread?)
If the date is turning into a date rape, the guy just doesn’t take even a strong NO! and starts to be more and more invasive, perhaps starting verbal violence, grabbing hair, tearing clothing etc. I personally would encourage the woman to appear scared, submissive and FEIGN compliance \”Please don’t hurt me, I will do whatever you want, just let go of my hair and I promise I will fulfill all your dreams etcetc..\” Now at this moment the assailant will think he is in charge. He will be less ready for the initial attack that the woman can deliver so that blow is very likely to hit.
Now imagine the same scenario but the woman starts to fight back immediately when the assailant has grabbed the hair:
– The assailant is much more \”fired up.\” To a degree he is expecting some form of resistance and he has his guard more up.
– The woman is probably at a disadvantage, is she fegns compliance she will be able to move tactically nearer the target area, disguise the coming blow into a caress and move her hands closer and so on.Yes there are situations where it is more advantageous to appear firm and there are situations when it is good to appear even aggressive. For the most part however, feigned submissive behaviour will give better results if you have to go physical. Think of it as a psychological sucker punch if you will.
Hi Ville.
Regarding the first part of your post, I still disagree because it’s the middle-ground that I think is appropriate. One can de-escalate without appearing meek or submissive. Your description seems to offer only two options: challenging the attacker’s ego or appearing submissive. But there is a middle ground that show self-confidence without arrogance or challenge. It is this middle ground, I believe, that is most appropriate: de-escalation without challenge. After all, isn’t THAT what \”pre-conflict\” courses teach.
As far the second — I have to clarify and express partial disagreement. I’ve heard the submissive strategy in rape attempts before, but it is not borne out by statistics. In rape attempts where the victim is passive, rape occurs 90% of the time. In rape attempts where the woman offers immediate physical resistance, rape occurs only between 15-40% of the time (depending on which of two studies you view as more accurate). There are also degrees between these, including passive verbal resistance, aggressive verbal resistance, and passive physical resistance (running), and there are stats for all these. By far, the one that succeeds most often in stopping the rape is active physical resistance.
Now, if you are talking about being meek as a strategy prior to attacking the rapist, I agree with you…but that’s not de-escalation, it’s a fighting tactic, and probably a really good one.
I am not trying to insult you Ville, but have you actually done research on rape victims? Have you done research on rapists? Or are you just theorizing here?
What you are describing sounds great on paper but it in now way reflects the reality of a rape situation. Since rape has been brought up, let’s talk factually about the date rapists based on criminal research.
Date-rape: This is the most common type of rape. It is usually a friend or someone that the victim knows. Date rape typically starts with a guy putting the moves on a woman hoping to get laid. When she rebuffs him, he trys again, she rebuffs him. He gets more agressive, usually driven by alcohol, and thinking its her obligation to put out, he escalates again into a rape.
Psychologically what is happening in this situation is that there is an emotional tug of war happening. Let me describe how this works. It is a normal date (well, as normal as a date can get for someone with the capacity to rape a woman). They go to dinner, see a movie, go dancing afterwards. They both have a great time. He has just spent $150 for the night, and done it all perfect. He thinks he will score.
They get back to her house, she invites him in. They kiss a little, he goes in for the move. She says \”Slow down\” because she likes him, would like to go out with him again, but has no intention of putting out. She does not want to offend him at the end of a wonderful date.
He says \”Come on baby, lets keep this party going, arent you having a good time?\” She is having a good time, so she says \”Yes\” because she still does not want to offend him. To him, she has just said yes to having sex. He continues moving forward. She says something girlish like \”Lets just make out for a while, I love to kiss\” In her mind, she is trying to play along with his desire to let the party keep going, yet slow things down at the same time. In his mind, she is now being a tease cause she just said a second ago that he could have sex wit her.
He goes for the move again, she is now officially uncomfortable with his aggressiveness so she says something in a whiney tone like \”Wait, I am not ready for this.\” At this point the man knows she doesn’t want to have sex, so he gets mad and goes for the guilt \”I took you out, didnt you have a good time? Were you just pretending all night.\” She says \”No, I had a great time\” (She still does not want to offend him) So he says \”So why are you being like this?\” the problem is now psychologically put as the womans fault. She says \”No, you dont understand, I had a great time, I just dont like to have sex on the first date.\”
This banter of guilt and battle of wills continues on. She gets more submissive and trys to smooth things over while he gains fuel to the fire and is justifying rape in his head (although in his mind it is not rape, it is getting what he deserves based on the money he just spent and the signals she gave him all night). When she finally realizes that she has to stand up for herself and say \”NO!\” he is so fired up that a rape ensues.
Psychologically what fired him up is NOT her fighting back. It was her pansy answers that seemed to contradict herself and giving him mixed signals. You dont have to be an insane rapist to get pissed off at a woman for giving you mixed signals, it makes all guys mad.
The only thing that could have deterred this entire escalation process was the woman saying NO right from the start. Instead, she played submissive while he emotionally escalated inside. Had she stood strong in the beggining, he would not have grabbed her hair, punched her and raped her. He would have called her a bitch, a tease, or some other fould words and most likely left. Its the submissive posture that empowers a rapist.
If a woman takes Ville’s advice and plays submissive waiting for the oppotunity to sucker punch, she is going to increase the likelyhood that he will punch back. Since most women cannot KO a guy with a sucker punch, this is a dangerous game to play, even if you are trained in KM.
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