Scare Tactics

[ville]

Siayn as a matter of fact yes I have done research with rape victims.
John is right in that if a victim is passive a rape occurs 90% of the time.
This is true. But the statistic is for women who do not fight back at all! That is NOT what I am referring to.
I think there was a misunderstanding: I strongly advise women to fight back.
However, I advise them to fight back so that they load the dice in their favour.
If you just start to fight immediately chances are, that the opponent is bigger and stronger and you will have a hard time.
Think about it this way:
Would you like your sister to fight a potential rapist by squaring him off and fighting immediately or would you like your sister to have one free eye gouge or groin shot before the fight even starts?
To me the answer is a no brainer.
Actually I’ve had 2 students use this strategy in a potential rape situation and it worked extremely well.

Siayn I agree totally with your scenario: Women do not find it generally easy to \”offend\” apotential rapist and I agree that they should be polite once or twice (if they are on a date…I don’t think all men who make advances are rapists…)and try to reason and then be firm.
BUT if the situation still escalates to physical after the firm NO! wouldn’t it be smart at that point to APPEAR submissive to get that free shot?
You wrote:
\”The only thing that could have deterred this entire escalation process was the woman saying NO right from the start.\”
Simply not true. And as I said I strongly tell my students to be firm and say NO but what if that is not enough? Why start to fight fair? Why not try to lure the guy in and get the free shot?

And by sucker punch I did not refer to right cross. How about gouging out his eyes, how about a throat shot? I can almost guarantee that it will buy time enough to do a follow-up or run away.
Siayn your logic IMO is a bit flawed: You say that women should fight back and be firm immediately yet you say that women might not even drop a guy with a free shot? I mean…How can they win in a \”fair\” fight then??

EDIT: I just had to add, that I am not making this up myself. The tactic in question comes from a rape prevention program that is recommended by AWSDA (American Women’s Self Defense Association), the Montreal Sexual Assault Center and the CLSC, and also one Finnish organization of rape victims whom I introduced it to. In addition to this I have talked about this with LEO who specializes in sexual crimes and she was in total agreement with the feigning compliance tactic.

[siayn]

I guess we have different visions of how this is going to go down.

If a woman has the opportunity to lull him into a false sense of security, the best advice would be to tell her to get away.

For example:

\”Hey baby, why dont you wait right here while I slip into something a bit more comfortable\” – Then lock herself in the room and call the police.

or

\”Why don’t we crawl into the backseat to give us some more room.\” Then run like hell and call 911 on the cell.

or

\”Let’s go up to your place.\” Then make a break for it.

…………….

I assume that if there is a chance for a woman to get away, she will take off. I would never think that a woman should lure a man in close just to calm him down and take a shot at him. I can see your point for using it to calm a guy down, but is she can calm him down long enough to take a shot at him, she should instead calm him down and run.

I am still wary of giving women the advice of playing a mind game in a scary situation like that. Fight or flight should be their only concern, not how to play a game of psychological manipulation. I guess Krav (or any effective martial art) trained women could pull this off, because they are trained to throw that sucker punch (or kick, or eye gouge) but giving that advice to the general female population seems dangerous.

[anonymous]

One thing about the eye gouge: In the situation Slayn described, the date rape situation, I wonder if a woman would psychologically be able to just gouge out the eyes of the guy she just went out with. We are assuming now that she had dinner with him, they saw a movie, had a really nice conversation and she is really interested. She just doesn’t want to have sex right away. So now the guy becomes more and more insistent, starts kissing, maybe touching her, pulling her clothes off… Even if she doesn’t like it and wants him to stop, would she be able to suddenly try to gouge out the eyes of the attractive guy she just had dinner with? Or hit him in the throat, which, theoretically, could result in his death? Also, at that point, he might already be on top of her, meaning that, even if she were to strike him, she would still have to find a way to get him off of her quickly, which might not be easy if he outweighs her by several dozen pounds. He might be able to recover fast enough to keep her pinned down and either proceed with the rape or take revenge, hitting her, maybe even eye gouging her.

So I kind of like Slayn’s approach. Try to pretend you are complying, then get away. If that’s not possible and she has to fight, it would probably be best to fight back as quickly as possible, when she still has a chance to get away. And definitely try to be firm and say \”No\” like she means it. If she says it kind of softly, maybe the guy will think she is just teasing him.

[clfmak]

A while back, I worked at a crappy telephone interview place. On one of my first days, soon after arriving early in the morning, one of the guys I passed showed up at my desk and asked me why I gave him a dirty look, and if I wanted to take it outside. Now, I didn’t intentionally give this guy a dirty look- it was just early in the morning and I’m not a morning person. I suspect that the issue was a racial thing- he’s a black guy, and he sees me, a new guy who’s a blond haired white guy with short hair, giving him a dirty look, and assumed that I don’t like black people. In a tired, confused, and kind of annoyed voice, I explained that it was like six thiry, and I’m sorry, but this is what I look like early in the morning. I wanted to say \”Are you in like sixth grade? Do you want to get us both fired?\” but I held my tongue. We became friends later on. I’ve had a few people try to pick fights with me because I \”looked at them funny\”. I think I need to get some plastic surgery to avoid this in the future.

[ville]

quote :

Hey baby, why dont you wait right here while I slip into something a bit more comfortable\” – Then lock herself in the room and call the police.

Siayn I am in total agreement but I thought that would be obvious: ALWAY try to avoid violent confrontation by escaping it if possible. But even in your example the woman is using the tactic I referred to : False compliance.
That is exactly what I am referring to so I guess that we agree. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear on this subject. In rape prevention what we teach is: How rapes occur, how to spot a date rapist, how to play \”the dating game\” safely, avoidance, psychological manipulation and using it to escape. Then we teach the physical part and combine it to the psychological.

However, if there is no chance of escape, if the woman cannot bluff her way out to escape and it has to go physical then I think it is best for them to once again bluff their way into one vicious attack before the fight ensues.

GK you are right that it is extremely hard for people in general to hurt other people. I think this is obvious. However, to assume that women might have harder time giving eye gouges and throat shots against a guy who clearly is trying to rape them is not right imo. Besides what should they do? Is it ok for them to try to do a thai kick to the leg of the rapist? Hurt them just a bit? Or should women just comply on date rapes since we can’t assume they can hurt their attacker?? Should they fight nice since they are girls? 😉 Sense of self-worth, fear management, self-esteem, belief systems, motivation, controlled aggression etc. are all things that a good rape prevention system should contain. I firmly believe that a woman can be vicious against a nice guy she was on a date with if she has the proper mindset.

Guys I think we are in agreement for once 😉
The only part that I am not sure if you agree with me or not is this:
IF the woman has no other option except to go physical I think it is better to load the dice in her favour using psychological manipulation to get one \”free\” shot into some vital part of the assaillant than just \”square off.\” That is all I am saying.

[ryan]

Well, I think Ville held this side of the discussion well. I just want to clarify, again, that we are talking about FEIGNING compliance as a tactical decision, in order to lower the guard and raise the ego of the potential assailant. IF they have to go physical, it only makes sense to me to lull the attacker into a false sense of control–that way he doesn’t expect an attack.

I not going to advise my wife, who’s 4’10\” and 100 pounds to appear to be billy badass to a potential attacker who may be 6’1\”, 200 pounds. I’ll advise her to talk her way into a position of advantage, using whatever means necessary, then unleash her unrelenting attack.

[anonymous]

I think it’s okay for the woman to do whatever attack is necessary. I’m not telling her what to do. I’m just questioning if she would actually be able to go through with a savage counter, such as the eye gouge, against a guy she knows and (until at least a few minutes ago) had even be attracted to. Things like that are easier to do against an unknown attacker in a park. Another problem is, if he is already on top of her, holding her down and then she goes for the eyes, he might be able to simply turn away and recover, before she’ll have a chance to get back up and run away and now the guy is gonna be pissed and maybe he’ll do the same thing back to her. I think ideally, if she has to fight, she should try to do it before the guy is on top of her. Groin shots are good (or squeezes). Painful, yet not lethal or causing permanent injury (in most cases). Might also kill the mood of the attacker (although in some cases maybe the opposite 😉 ).

Still the best thing to do would probably be to make space as soon as the guy becomes too aggressive. Get up from the couch, clearly tell him to stop, telling him to leave, if he doesn’t, maybe get out or lock yourself in a room to call police. If he gets up and attacks, at least now both are standing and if she counters and stuns him with the counter, it’ll be easier for her to get away than when he’s on top of her, pinning her down.

[ville]

GK I’m sorry but I still think your logic is flawed.
You mean a girl can’t do eye gouge or throat strike because the guy WAS nice to her (and now he is trying to rape her…) but she can definitely do a groin kick. How?

quote :

if he is already on top of her, holding her down and then she goes for the eyes, he might be able to simply turn away and recover

Anything MIGHT happen. Try this with your GF: Tell her to caress your cheek and then surprise you by suddenly pushing her thumb into your eye without any warning (not too hard though.) Tell me if you are able to dodge a surprise blow that starts from half an inch away from your eye. It is impossible, even if you are expecting it and the rapist isn’t. Of course anything might happen but I still think it is easier to react to a highly telegraphing groin kick, especially if the woman appears to be fighting back.
About the rapist retaliating yes it might happen. Once again do you think he will treat the woman with kid gloves because \”oh well you just tried to groin kick me so I guess I’m not gonna go violent. After all it wasn’t an eye gouge.\”

quote :

make space as soon as the guy becomes too aggressive. Get up from the couch, clearly tell him to stop, telling him to leave, if he doesn’t, maybe get out or lock yourself in a room to call police

This is all very nice but not very realistic. Think about the situation:
The guy probably is already very close to her right? You think he is simply going to let her get up or lock herself up UNLESS of course she is using the feigning compliance trick. But once again as I stated all that is fine but if it has to go physical why warn your attacker about it? I simply do not see the logic.

[anonymous]

I was basically just referring to the situation Slayn described. The two have been on a date, she really likes him, invites him up, he tries to kiss her, she goes along with it, then he tries to touch her, she doesn’t like it, but still can’t really bring herself to say NO to him. So I’m just thinking, a girl like that, at what point is she going to go from unwillingly playing along to suddenly gouging the guy’s eyes out? I mean, I just don’t know if psychologically she’d be ready for that. BTW a quick jab to the eye would be easier, but you said \”gouge out\”, so now I’m picturing her trying to go to his eyes, dig in (maybe even with two fingers per eye), squeezing that eyeball, then pulling it out of it’s socket all the way, maybe yank on that optic nerve if it’s still attached…

Yuck, makes you cringe just thinking about it, so would this somewhat shy girl, with little or no martial arts training bring herself to attempt to do that? I’m just wondering. Truth is, it’s a good attack. But I’m thinking a girl most likely to attempt such an attack might be a girl that’s tougher, more trained in martial arts etc and such a girl might handle the whole situation differently, maybe tell him to stop right away, in a firm voice, get up if he tries to continue anyway, maybe tell him to leave… If he still comes after her and she is unable to get away and he overpowers her, then you are right, maybe she should try to comply for a brief moment, so she can get those counter attacks in. And I think hits to the eyes and throat can be very effective. I was just thinking about the \”gouging\” part, since also it isn’t easy to gouge out someone’s eyes if he is on top or in front of you. This might be easier if the person is below you, or there is some kind of wall behind him, so he can’t turn his head out of the way.

So, I see what you are saying about the surprise attack and I agree it can be an effective tool to use.

[ville]

quote :

maybe tell him to stop right away, in a firm voice, get up if he tries to continue anyway, maybe tell him to leave… If he still comes after her and she is unable to get away and he overpowers her, then you are right, maybe she should try to comply for a brief moment, so she can get those counter attacks in. And I think hits to the eyes and throat can be very effective

See? We are in agreement because that was exactly what I was referring to.
Thank you. 😀

[Author]

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