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Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Use of force is highly state-dependent, but a good generic book on the subject is Massad Ayoob’s “In the Gravest Extreme”. It is mainly geared towards shootings, but contains a lot of good information from someone very knowledgeable that applies to H2H as well.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Attorney: “So, Detective Tuna, please explain to the court why you hit my client five times.”
Detective Tuna: “Because four times would not have been enough and six times would have been too many…”
Hammy – I’m a cop in the People’s Republik of Mass. Yes, under Mass. General Law, kicking someone with a shod foot may be considered assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. However… The standard (as I understand it only) is all about reasonable prudence. Would a reasonably prudent person, standing in your shoes, knowing what you knew and believing what you reasonably believed about the situation have acted in the same manner as you did?
For example: A 110 lb. woman knocks down a 200 lb. man who just had attacked her in a manner that made her fear for her life. If she administers a head stomp, could she clearly articulate that she felt that if the man got up that the man would resume his attempt to hurt / kill her? I’d say yes. Now, what if the situation is reversed? That’s a hard sell.
Disparity of force (size difference, weapon vs. unarmed person, multiple attackers, etc.) plays into this. Trust me when I tell you that I’ll train my daughters to do whatever they have to do to survive. Me – as a cop and a KM instructor – I’ll be held to a different standard (and certainly sued no matter what – assuming that I survive the encounter…).
I teach that the best way to get out of a situation is not to get in one. Walk away if you can, run if you must, but if you must defend yourself, then do it well. We owe that to ourselves and our loved ones.
BTW – are you in Amherst, MA? Best wishes.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Surely, the issue would be one of what your consceince tells you, each individual should know through their training, what each individuals reasonable force is. Sometimes it is an inner force that will deter you from continueing in your aggression beyond what is reasonable to debiltate your attacker.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Here is a link where we discussed basically the same thing and it has alot of very good points on it…
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Hammy, ya gotta keep in mind where Krav came from! I think in Israel it’s perfectly legal to kick lawyers – or whatever this thread was asking.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
quote OldKravDude:Hammy, ya gotta keep in mind where Krav came from! I think in Israel it’s perfectly legal to kick lawyers – or whatever this thread was asking.Ah man are you saying we can’t kick lawyers here:mad: No wonder their so arrogant….Except Miriam of course on both counts
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
We’ve covered this to an extent in classes, luckily one of our instructors is a serving policeman so he’s made some general points like not kicking someone in the head once they’re down and also to loudly announce that you don’t want to fight if at all possible so any witnesses will hopefully hear.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
quote unstpabl1:Ah man are you saying we can’t kick lawyers here:mad: No wonder their so arrogant….Except Miriam of course on both countsThanks, Mike! :wav:
(BTW, your check is in the mail.)
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
I’d rather spend a little time in the slammer and be alive, than be dead because I didn’t take the threat serious enough, or I was worried about getting in trouble. And when it comes to my loved ones, I sure as hell will err on the side of finality against a threat than worry about whether I’m going to be wearing steel bracelets at the end of the day. Why else do I do this, if not for them?
Adam says it right: It is mostly left to interpretation by the first officers on the scene and by how you conduct yourself in a court of law. Not saying that’s going to save your arse if you purposely wailed on some guy half your size to show what a big man you were in front of your friends, but a calm and reasoned articulation for your violent response to what can be deemed as a threat will usually serve you just fine.Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
“Sometimes it is an inner force that will deter you from continueing in your aggression beyond what is reasonable to debiltate your attacker.”
In my opinion and experience, due to fear and adrenaline, the opposite is more likely to happen.
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
quote Miriam:Thanks, Mike! :wav:(BTW, your check is in the mail.)
OK…We have now exposed Miriam (calm down people) for the fraud she is. She is not an attorney. I spend too much time around too many attorneys and have never heard any willingly offer any money for anything. Wait a minute! She said the check is in the mail. We don’t know there is any actual check. I apologize. She is most definitely an attorney. That is still consistent.
I have an instructor who has very clearly stated that you will have some explaining to do should you decide to strike someone to the throat with a fist. He showed you may get away with hitting with the webbed portion of you hand. He has also discussed different techniques in terms of causing damage that could bring your intent into question. But he says, “If you fear for your life, you need to do what you can.”
I do think the topic is a valid one, but I also think it is a simple rule of don’t look for a bad situation, but be eady to get out of one. I can’t believe I could ever go so far that I would have to defend myself in court. And I feel if I was insane enough to do something crazy, I would have the temporary insanity plea, as I would have had to be insane to go that crazy on anyone.
Dave
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
quote Ryan:“Sometimes it is an inner force that will deter you from continueing in your aggression beyond what is reasonable to debiltate your attacker.”In my opinion and experience, due to fear and adrenaline, the opposite is more likely to happen.
Sorry for the side note:
Ryan,
Have you been doing any writing lately?
Dave
Re: Self defense/use of force taught in Krav
Uh, no, but things are moving forward. It will be a very good resource.
Do multiple attackers change the situation? Or vulnerable people you are protecting?
quote stevetuna:Disparity of force (size difference, weapon vs. unarmed person, multiple attackers, etc.) plays into this.Hello everyone, really enjoyed reading the posts on this thread, both the expert advice (with lesser or greater disclaimers) and the well-intended personal opinions.
SteveTuna, thanks for your insightful advice. You seem to be in a position to give an authoritative opinion on the use of force in a multiple-attacker scenario, could you please elaborate?
In a multiple attacker scenario, the defender seems to have a further few options that to me seem consistent with the principles of Krav Maga as I understand them (from a variety of sources, regardless of organizational affiliation):
a) Deal with the first attacker not just until he/she’s down, but actually out (i.e. unconscious), before turning to the next assailant. For example, this could include a stomp on the head even when he/she is down, but stopping when he/she is clearly unconscious.
b) Go further and make an example of the first attacker and beat him/her to a pulp before turning to the rest of the party.
In both these scenarios, I imagine it would be reasonable to assume that the first assailant from a group would likely be the leader of that group (a contrary example would be if the group attack on you was some kind of an initiation ceremony of a junior member of the gang, who would be instructed to hit you first).
I am not advocating this as an approach, just raising it as a logical scenario with a logically available response.
Furthermore, what would change if you are with other people that are visibly physically vulnerable to an attack, for example young children, a visibly physically impaired adult companion (e.g. in a wheelchair or using a walker, or with a broken arm in a sling, or with a broken leg in a cast and on crutches), and you are acting not just to defend yourself but them also?
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