- This topic has 125 replies, 37 voices, and was last updated 18 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I agree with at least something that each of you have said here – What seems to be getting lost is the context.
Competitively, there are reasons for weight divisions – All participants are trained fighters, and your average 150 lb \”fighter\” may not be able to compete against someone that goes 250, and who is equally proficient in their given discipline.
Sparring against various opponents, I believe, is beneficial, especially for smaller individuals (like myself). In part, because you never know what may be coming \”in the street\” but also because defending against height, reach, weight and strength advantages, I believe, sharpens skills. I do acknowledge that sparring is a far cry from combat. However, I personally feel I’m at my best when working with someone bigger or more talented (or both) than myself. I also learn more that way, and don’t mind \”taking my lumps\” to do so.
However; in the street, while I would likely not instigate an altercation with someone twice my size (though there was a time that I would, and did 😳 ) or anyone else for that matter, it is highly likely that if involved in an altercation, someone of \”smallish\” stature will likely face a larger attacker and will need to be able to defend against, neutralize, and incapacitate that threat – Though not necessarily \”go toe to toe\” with them, which as has been stated, is not KM. For many of us, that’s a simple reality. I for one would not, and have not, backed down from an \”opponent\” simply because of his size, and I am confident that unless they are equally or superiorly trained, that I (as well as those I train with and others on this forum) would likely fair well – Especially when fighting to protect myself or my family. 👿
In sum; IMHO size matters in some situations, though likely not in self defense unless attacked by a trained fighter … The odds of that happening by the way, are pretty darn slim.
One other thing …
Psyops said:
\”… They should also understand timing and distance and most importantly when to disengage!\”
Disengagement, depending on what you mean (e.g. saying \”OK I give! Uncle\”) … Is not what I train for. Disengagement to me, is not an option – Largely because I won’t be involved in an altercation over frivolous crap – If I’m fighting, I’m fighting to preserve life and limb – There is no walking away from that, and you certainly can’t count on your attacker allowing you to \”disengage.\”
If, on the other hand you mean escape – I could live with that if I was taking a beating …
😐The impact is the same when a 120 pound woman points and squeezes a trigger or when a 220 pound man does it. Or when they use a different equalizer. Martial arts are designed to stack the odds in your favor through various means- weaponry, tactics, conditioning, etc. A one on one fight with a larger person is an uneven playing field- how well have you equilized the situation? Better yet, how have you stacked the odds in your favor? Thats how I view the matter.
Great posts!
I totally agree and just for the record I would never suggest that anyone disengage if the opponent is still a viable threat. That being said the Nike defense is certainly prefferable to bashing fists with a bigger person.
Now personally I fear no one. I am quite confident in my ability as a fighter but more importantly I know that I can bang and \”erase\” most threats with a well placed right hand. But most of my students don’t look like me they don’t have my size and I certainly would not encourage them to fight the way that I do. I would encourage them to \”defend\” themselves though. That means leave the conflict at the first real opportunity.
Great responses guys!
\”This has nothing to do with trained or untrained. And please stop with the references to the UFC. All of the things you pointed out are true but I am not talking about ring fighting!\”
Hmm, that’s funny, because you are the one talking about sparring, and you are the one who said, \”A bad big man will beat a good little man almost everytime! This is just a matter of science people.\” I simply posted examples which refute your \”science\”. Call Scott Ferrozzo and ask him what is was like to be \”walked down\” by a guy who weighed over 120 pounds less than him. You also said, \”I don’t care what you know or how much training you have.\”
So, are we talking about sparring, fighting, self defense, or self protection? Are we talking about trained, untrained, or both?
Look, no one is saying or has said, teach your \”female students to ‘stand their ground’ against much larger attackers\”. However, your initial premise did not address the issue in this way, and it seemed to indicate that they should simply spar with their \”own\”. We tell our students all the time that they shouldn’t be the dog that chases cars. However, unless you’ve \”felt\” what it’s like to have someone bigger and stronger trying to hit you, you are fooling yourself. Your students need to feel the rush, the fear, the weight, etc. It doesn’t need to be a kickboxing match, but again, that comes back to goals of training. That will be up to the instructor and their students.
Good response Ryan, well said.
I am curious, however, what Psyops meant by \”We have to resist the urge to take our Israeli ‘attitude’ and convey to students that it is in their best interest to go to to toe with bigger people.’
I didn’t know there was a particular prediliction for Israelis to \”go to to toe with bigger people.\”
Advise.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment but one of the cornerstones of Krav Maga is neutralizing nearly any threat no matter how intimidating or dangerous – Gun, Knife, Big Man etc.
Krav Maga in its essence is about self preservation – it doesn’t have to be pretty or poetic, it just has to work. Once you commit to a fight with a large attacker, there are no rules. A big man’s eyes, throat, balls, fingers, knees etc. are just as vulnerable as a little man’s.
Also, a big man off balance loses much of his power advantage. That is why being able to move easily front, back, side-to-side is extremely important. Getting to the \”dead side\” takes away much of the attackers options.
I actually think Psyops makes some good points–it’s his delivery. 8)
He doesn’t want his students \”chasing cars\”. The goal of a self defense system should be to eliminate the threat and get to safety as soon as possible. You should do enough damage to allow you to disengage and get away, not necessarily be indoctrinated to stay and fight (though this is a difficult determination to make.)
We used to have a KM fight class at my school. However, no matter how much emphasis we placed on the self defense aspects, students would always gravitate to something that looked more like MMA or kickboxing. I felt this was detrimental, and it sent the wrong message. KM is a self defense system. I don’t want my students, regardless of size, adopting an ego-driven, \”squaring off\”-type mentality. So, we now have a sparring class, that’s attended by KM, boxing, and MMA students. The class allows students to feel the rush, get hit, learn to hit while getting hit, experience real resistance with multiple body types and skills levels, without being under the KM moniker. We also \”fight\” in our regular KM classes, but if they want to \”spar\” they go to the sparring class.
Re:
quote \”Samson\:Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment but one of the cornerstones of Krav Maga is neutralizing nearly any threat no matter how intimidating or dangerous – Gun, Knife, Big Man etc.Krav Maga in its essence is about self preservation – it doesn’t have to be pretty or poetic, it just has to work. Once you commit to a fight with a large attacker, there are no rules.
Well said.
Re:
From my understanding of it, a prolonged fistfight is not krav maga, anyway. In a fight/flight scenario, my goal would *not* be to go toe to toe with anybody…smaller, bigger, fatter, whatever.
Two things:
1) David beat Goliath in this case size did not matter.
2) I have found from my own sparring with various sized opponents that I have a harder time with smaller opponents. Why? Smaller doesnt always equal faster, but usually they are quicker than I am so I have to compensate for thier speed. Also I would like to point out that most of my best well placed strikes have been when a smaller opponent is \”disengaging\” from me. Why? Because they drop their guard for just long enough for that good whack.
I won’t comment on the David/Goliath thing.
\”Disengaging\” in this context should occur after the threat has been eliminated or at least damaged. Obviously, if you’re striking as they’re moving out, that didn’t happen. Besides, they shouldn’t drop their hands.
Psyops – \”Now personally I fear no one.\”
Maybe this is best for a different thread, but if you’re not experiencing at least some degree of fear in a fight, then you’re not really in a fight! At least that’s been my experience. Isn’t fear a trigger for our bodies to produce adrenaline?
I agree with Kurt, and I recommend to anyone interested in this subject to read Geoff Thompson’s book, Fear – The Friend of Exceptional People.
Re:
quote \”Ryan\:I actually think Psyops makes some good points–it’s his delivery. 8)He doesn’t want his students \”chasing cars\”. The goal of a self defense system should be to eliminate the threat and get to safety as soon as possible. You should do enough damage to allow you to disengage and get away, not necessarily be indoctrinated to stay and fight (though this is a difficult determination to make.)
We used to have a KM fight class at my school. However, no matter how much emphasis we placed on the self defense aspects, students would always gravitate to something that looked more like MMA or kickboxing. I felt this was detrimental, and it sent the wrong message. KM is a self defense system. I don’t want my students, regardless of size, adopting an ego-driven, \”squaring off\”-type mentality. So, we now have a sparring class, that’s attended by KM, boxing, and MMA students. The class allows students to feel the rush, get hit, learn to hit while getting hit, experience real resistance with multiple body types and skills levels, without being under the KM moniker. We also \”fight\” in our regular KM classes, but if they want to \”spar\” they go to the sparring class.
Ryan,
This is closer to what I am saying. However many instructors do not stess the importance of the self defense aspect of Krav Maga during fight class. I am not anti-sparring. I am merely saying that it should be done in its proper context. Yes there is benefit to sparring with bigger people. However I think that the sparring should reflect intelect and approach to each opponent not working \”techniques\”.
The Israeli attitude permeates the entire system of Krav Maga. In fact this is what keeps Israel safe. They do not negotiate with aggressors and they never comply. This is consistent with almost every Israeli based self defense system and their national policy in Israel. So that is the Israeli mentality that I alluded to.
Lastly,
When I say I don’t fear anyone I am not thumping my chest and being Billy Badass. I grew up in Oakland, Ca. For those of you who do not know Oakland is a war zone. You can’t walk with fear in your eyes. If you do you will get your ass handed to you daily. I do not look for conflict with anyone. If it happens though I am not \”afraid\”. If you use your fear as motivation that is great! Use whatever you need. But not everyone processes stress the same way.
Sparring in KM classes should not mimmick MMA style fights. It is that simple. As far as trained or untrained fighters goes it is absurd and extremely egotistic for any trained individual to believe that a \”untrained\” person stands no chance against them. This simply is not true. Do you know how many \”Blackbelts\” I have seen get pimp slapped and beaten down by untrained fighters? Do you think the average college football player can’t handle themselves against a trained individual who is giving up 25lbs to them? Come on man!
The difference between fighting and self defense is what I am getting at here. Sparring is a valid exercise but students and instructors should remember that it is an artificial enviornment.
With regard to the UFC. I live in Las Vegas the MMA capital of the U.S. I both love it and I hate it. I love that the UFC has been succesful it is entertaining and there are some talented fighters out there. However, every guy who has ever enrolled in any BJJ class walks around with their \”Tap out\” shirts and their \”Ground and Pound\” hats and it is enough to make me want to puke! I respect all MA’s. These guys are male groupies. It is embarrasing seriously. You have to be here to see it. I mean it is a shame!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
