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So, the Eli Avikzar discussion reminded me, I think John one time mentioned in class that one of the things Eli and Imi disagreed about was on whether or not there should be two different ways to defend against the stick, based on the angle of the attack.
If I remember correctly, Eli believed that one should always do the defense for overhead swing, even if it turns out to be a baseball bat-type attack, coming more from the side. Imi believed it was better to have two distinct defenses, one for baseball bat swing, one for overhead.
So, which is better? One or two defenses? I suppose one of the main reasons for doing only one is that there are less decisions to make and therefore potentially less hesitation. If you see anything being swung at you, you just cover your head and get in deep, using the stabbing motion. This makes sense, as it is often difficult to tell whether or not the swing comes from overhead or more around. Especially at the beginning of the motion, these two attacks look very similar. Being unsure as to which defense to do could cause you to freeze up and maybe not react at all (Hick’s law).
On the other hand, if you do the overhead defense and are late and it was really a baseball bat-like swing, you may get hit in the ribs (if the swing was low), which are completely unprotected if you are lifting your arms up. If the assailant aims for your head and you raise your arms, your head should still be covered and thus protected, although you will take all of the impact on the arm and if it’s a very heavy object (such as a metal pipe) it may break the bone. However, even if you are late, you may still be able to lean your upper body forward as your arms are coming up, which would result in only the lower part of the stick hitting your arm, which would be less powerful.
If you have two choices and do the baseball bat defense, but you are wrong and it’s really an overhead swing, this would be a much bigger problem, since the stick would then hit you in the head and would not be blocked by anything other than your skull. This would be a greater risk than doing the overhead defense against a baseball bat swing.
Another thing to consider are off angle attacks: If the stick is swung at you baseball bat-style from the side, would you still be able to do an overhead defense? Or wouldn’t it be much quicker to spin around in a baseball bat defense motion?
Okay, I know, I probably lost a good portion of forum participants with this, but anyone else, what do you think? Realistically, what would make most sense? It’s likely that in many situations you’ll only have a split second to react. Would having two different defenses slow you down and thus be risky? Or does the risk of injury while doing overhead defense against a baseball bat swing outweigh the benefits?
Any comments?
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
Well if we get lucky maybe John will comment.
Iíd love to hear your opinion, so stop lurking and make a post! thumbsup
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
As I see things, the technique is less important than the strategy. In either case, if someone is swinging a stick at me, my strategy is to get close, control the stick, and commence beating. There’s lots of techniques for this, but it is a simple, fairly intuitive strategy. I would train this in a sparring type exercise where one person has a stick and one doesn’t and the stick person starts trying to beat the defender- forehand, backhand, vertical etc. Either do this with a padded stick and maybe a fencing mask, or a lightweight rattan stick with some better protectice gear. Defender has to close in and counter. Exact technique may vary, but if the goal is accomplished, then good.
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
The IKMA stick defense is to defend the way you would an overhead swing but at the same time lifting your leg the way you would defend/check a roundkick..the key is to burst in violently.This way you are covered both high andlow and you dont need to know which way the strike is coming.
Eli Avikzar also taught to use both arms to defend the overhead strike as if you are diving.Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
At 1:25 in this video you can see the IKMA defense I am talking about
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BZtNv97TkkYRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
GK, I’m not nearly as experianced in KM as you are… but having done stick defense in my earlier years (aka little brother vs big brother) I can tell ya that my primary objective is to get far far far away from the stick or close enough to the person so that any attacks they use would be negated….. I realise there is an appropriate defense for each situation, but I could care less what defense is used so long as I’m not hit anywhere with that thing. It only takes 1.
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
quote CJs Dad:Well if we get lucky maybe John will comment.Iíd love to hear your opinion, so stop lurking and make a post! thumbsup
Oooouuuuhh, calling the man out! rofl2 I concur wholeheartedly! thumbsup
Nixxon brings up another thing I was going to ask and where we could use John to comment, which is whether or not the stick defense is actually instinctive. All of our defenses are build on instinct, yet it seems that, instinctively, one would probably shy away from a heavy object being swung at one’s head, not dive in towards it. Now, don’t get me wrong, I think the stick defense we use makes perfect sense, as the dangerous part of the stick is it’s tip and the closer I get in, the less damage the weapon will do, but in terms of instinct, does it go against your natural reaction to move in toward he stick? Thinking about it, that could be another topic.
Anyway, first topic, even though I like the baseball bat defense and it would generally be a better defense against a baseball bat swing, I can see how it might make sense to just do one defense under all circumstances. The benefits may outweigh the risks here. If you are early, it’s no problem and in the worst case scenario – if you are very late and the stick might hit your ribs – you may be able to keep on fighting, even if in pain.
However, if you have two defenses and make a mistake, doing baseball bat defense against an overhead swing could cause a much bigger problem. We do have drills such as the ones Mak described and I have to confess that I’ve been wrong more than once and have done baseball bat against overhead swing and if that had been a real attack, it would have probably cracked my skull.
So, maybe the risks associated with having two ways to defend would be greater than those associated with having only one way?
Boy, I wished someone really knowledgeable would get in on this. :):
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
Kevin, haven’t gotten around to loading the video yet (I don’t have high speed, so it always takes a while), but I remember seeing that defense on video before and I think a version of it is also shown in Imi’s book.
One question, it looks as though you would attempt to defend with your shin against the attacker’s wrist if the swing comes in low, but could it ever happen that, if you are late, you would end up defending against the stick itself? If so, could that shatter your shin bone? Or would you somehow be able to take such a blow if you are defending correctly? Also, if you always lift your leg, would that make it harder for you to burst in deep, as you are now lifting your leg instead of stepping in with it?
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
Just saw the video and it did look as if the defender defended mostly with his leg, lifting it up high, but keeping his upper body relatively straight. It also looked as if he lifted his leg before the arms came up. I wonder if this could cause a problem if he has less time to defend? We usually lift the arms first, as the upper body bends forward and only then step (if there is time). That way, even if you see the attack very late, at least you will be able to redirect the stick and if your body is leaning in, the power of the attack will be lessened.
On the other hand, lifting the leg as you are stepping in could have the advantage of using only one defense under all circumstances and thus not having to make choices.
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
There have been lots and lots of shin, thigh and knee strikes in Dog Brothers stick fights, applied with full power and with a solid stick, and in all their years, I’ve seen only one where a strike caused fight stopping injury (separated kneecap). Strikes to the shin hurt but I doubt a strike that hit while you were moving in would cause a fracture or stop you from fighting. If crashing in, the tip of the stick wouldn’t be hitting you, and thats the part that really causes damage.
Note this is only using a rattan stick not a truncheon designed to cause injury, but they use pretty beefy sticks- bigger around and heavier than the escrima sticks most people use. In self defense you might be encountering a stout piece of hardwood or metal, but from what I’ve seen, the most common stick is the small novelty baseball bat- very common in my area.
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
How much do the Dog Brothers condition their shins? I’ve never gotten hit with a stick into the shin, but we do the leg lifting defense against round kicks and on occasion we go lightly and don’t use shin guards. Even going slow, going shin against shin can hurt, so I was thinking if it’s a heavy stick or even metal pipe it may be the same? Of course, you would try to avoid the stick altogether, but one never knows, especially in a street fight, you might be surprised by the attack and if you are late, it may still hit the shin with some force. Also, for me personally, I’m much smaller and my shin probably can’t take as much damage as that of a 200 pound guy.
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
I don’t think they really condition their shins per se. Conditioning the body for impact is not emphasized in many weapon arts (except maybe krabi krabong because they use the thai kick) because conditioning doesn’t really work against weapons on a theoretical level. For example, doing lots of crunches may protect against punches to the stomach, but a knife to the same area will make the muscle fairly irrelevant. In the example of the stick defense, damage to the shin would not be a square strike with the tip so you’d probably be okay. You might have a hurt shin, but come on, you’re fighting; you’ll probably get dinged up. When doing some stick training on Wednesday, I accidentally whacked a guy in the forearm pretty hard (hard enough for everyone to hear and look) and he was fine.
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
GK, many of the techniques in KM is “instinctive-based” not “instinctive” in it self. The overhead defense has elements of instinct in it, raising the hand to cover the head for instance. But the bursting in part has to be taught for shure.
As for 1 vs 2 techniques, IKMF teaches the overhead sollution first at around p3/4 level, and the baseball bat not until G level. This kinda makes it more instinctive to dive in fast with the stab, and only if you recognice it as a horizontal attack defend with the alternative sollution.
Re: Stick defense – too many choices?
Hmmm, that’s interesting. How long does it take to get from p3/4 to G? A few months? Anyway, maybe a good idea to get used to the overhead one first, since that one would work in most situations, then throw in baseball bat as an alternative.
Do you ever do the defense where you lift the leg to defend against a stick? We don’t usually practice it, but I know I’ve seen it somewhere before. I thought it was in Imi’s book, but I looked and couldn’t find it, so it may have been somewhere else.
As for stick vs shin, I suppose the light tournament sticks are not so bad, we have those at the NTC and while I wouldn’t want to get hit with them if I can avoid it, they are pretty light and would not cause too bad an injury. Heavier sticks or metal bars however may be a different situation. Hopefully adreneline would carry you through the fight if you did get hit with one of those.
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GiantkillerRe: Stick defense – too many choices?
I guess my defense would have to be based on the size of the “stick”.
If a 300# monster comes up with a baseball bat and is swinging for the fence. I might try to avoid the swing or block in closer to the wrist elbow area, then to take the shot to the forearm or shin.
If it’s granny protecting Tweety from Sylvester with a broom. I might block the item with either and move on from there.
Most of the defenses I’ve seen are very similar between knives and sticks, so “instinctively” I may use one of them without much thought being given. Hey I might just use a few of the 360 defense blocks and move in with a few combatives, while getting the stick away. I think the response would be all depending on the situation.
When we practice in class I don’t use shin guards, but I wouldn’t want to take a shot to the shins at all. :thunbsdown:
I like being able to walk.
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