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Is anyone here familiar with Russian Martial arts? I am only familiar with Systema through some reading and video clips that I have seen. Some of the \”soft\” skills seem very interesting.
With that being said, if anyone DOES know about it, is it in your opinion that it could be used as a good MMA w/ KM? Or are there any specific techniques that would prove useful for Krav Maga to incorporate?
Just curious……and as always I appreciate the feedback. 😉
I’d agree that the skillsets and training methods are divergent. But I’d be interested in seeing if anyone has tried to integrate the ‘slow motion’ training techniques the Systema guys use.
I have a friend of mine who trained extensively in a variety of very un-Krav-like martial arts: Japanese sword fighting of some kind, Aikido and a few other things I never heard of. The things he says about Systema are the sorts of things other TMA practitioners say once they get into Krav: \”It’s much more practical for defense, much less emphasis on B.S.\”
But he also says the same things about Systema that people from the Krav world have said: \”When you watch it being done, it looks very unconventional, and it’s difficult to see how it could be so devastatingly effective.\”
I’m intrigued. And I’d love to see if the slow-mo stuff has any effectiveness. Does anyone know of any other RBSDs use such a training strategy?
Could you define what is so different about the skill sets? What would make them so diametrically opposed?
To be honest, I know more (which is not much) about the training regimen than I do the techniques. But I’ve heard that the strikes and defenses are a lot different, and work on fundamentally different principles.
Which doesn’t make a lot of sense, since there are only so many ways the body can move. But I do think that Systema guys are less interested in basics that are ‘easy to teach,’ a common mantra among Krav people.
Please understand I’m not anything near an expert in anything, but I’m intrigued.
Exactly, I hear you…. Like I said, I just watched some video clips with Vladimir Vasiliev and saw him do some gun disarmaments. I also watched another clip using unconventional weapons (i.e. a wallet, umbrella, briefcase). This is very fastinating to me and was curious if these had any practical use???
And…. since, from what I have seen, this is a relatively new art form here in America…. I was wondering if it has been looked at seriously by others? I think it is too easy for anyone to just dismiss it. It looks like it has some valuable tools that could be added. Just my opinion though.
I don’t know much about it either, but I think the divergence in skillsets come from the agressive nature of Krav as opposed to the, for lack of a better word, passive nature of Systema. In other words, based on my observations, Systema advocates a very loose and relaxed body so much so that strikes will be less effective against a systema practitioner. It seemed pretty unrealistic to me, but without actually trying it who’s to say. I saw one clip where the defender was on the bottom of a mounted attacker who was armed with a knife and was redirecting the incoming stab by the blade! Of course this was in slow motion. That one technique in particular is what turned me off to the system, the timing involved in pulling that off would have to be exact, not something I would want to bet my life on. Of course that’s not to say that Systema doesn’t offer anything useful. Just my observations though.
Here are some clips from a Systema School in the UK.
In reference to slow motion training, this can be very effective if also done with regular speed and sparing. Ofcoarse it is needed for learning a new move, but…..in sparring and drills………
If you cann’t do it slow, how can you expect to do it at full speed?
If your style has technical specifics such as angles for steps, point foot work, pressure based reactions (chi sau), muscle memory basics, and/or ocular recognition based reactions, it is good to do them slow to make sure the programming is perfect.
or you can just be fast and sloppy 😉
also, it may help slow the rush of adreniline if you practice slow. Tai Chi attempts to work this way sometimes. I guess if you speed up slow with adreniline then it is regular speed, but if you speed up fast with adren. you get sloppy flailing.
but slow motion alone sounds risky to me….In EBMAS we cycle threw slow, medium, and full speed and then back.
Jeff,
Thanks for your insight. The slo-mo makes some sense to me. Systema seems to focus a bunch on it.
John
Systema is more principle driven, where krav is more technique driven (as I see things). This is not an absolute. Anyway, when you train in principles and technique is secondary, slow motion training is very useful. These principles are supposed to teach the subconscious to move in more effective ways, because you are teachning good principles in a way that is random and spontaneous- the way you’re body moves instinctively. I have dones similar training (ki chuan do) for the last two years (at least). I can tell you that slow motion training in a spontaneous manner (like systema) rather than a structured manner (tai chi chuan) does teach your body to move in a loose, relaxed, spontaneous way in situations where most people would tense up. For examples of high stress examples, I can cite being attacked by a dog(I did tense up a little on that one), mosh pits, friends randomly attacking me, having people almost run into me, falling off my skateboard, etc. There are people who will tell you that its impossible to relax the muscles during an adrenaline dump. I disagree- but adrenaline dumps are still very uncomfortable and make the legs kind of hard to move (from my experience in animal attacks and car accidents). Training in a \”soft\”, spontaneous martial art will teach you motions that are applicable more often than fighting techniques- when you play sports, when you need to dodge something, when you dance.
I think krav and systema can work together because krav deals with the bare bones of self defense- especially the psychological aspects which may be lost with systema- you see them smile when doing drills, etc. Systema may teach you some interesting things about how your body works and moves- which is always good in martial arts. I train sometimes with a Russian guy who knows all sorts of martial arts, but focuses on his soft art background- aikido, systema, and tai chi.
If you are interested in krav and systema, I recommend the book Attack Proof- its similar to systema in that it deals with soft work and principles over technique, but deals with self defense more- adrenaline drills, and a background of basic close combat techniques (like krav), and there are drills that are very fast and resistive.
To learn how to move chaotically but smoothly and thus deal with chaos, you kind of have to start slowly, and as you advance you increase speed. Anyway, some sites that have stuff that is similar to systema (to my knowledge) and have some video clips:
http://www.attackproof.com -Controvercial to some because it runs contrary to classical training, check it out if you want, or sit and smolder. I love the video clips, but I’m bised by my training.
http://www.yangmian.com- a hybrid formless kung fu system- some videos are kind of cool, but I’m turned off on it somewhat because they praise the speed of the guy’s elbow freestyle when I could manage the same.
http://www.invisiblemaster.com- some cool videos, very similar to previous site, again a formless kung fu style. Threre’s a weird speed punching demo I don’t recommend.The attackproof.com was actually the most interesting to me of the three. I’m sure I can search the web and find plenty of people with opinions about this method, but I’d be most interested in hearing from people on this list.
I noticed a lot of differences from Krav forms and training technique. Biggest for me? The emphasis on taking the fight to the ground, and the ‘lots of strikes in quick succession.’
I’m not sure how practical it is for most people to learn the breakdancing-type kicks in the groundfighting videos — looks to me like a great way to get hurt badly if you’re not on a training mat — but then again, I’ve always been relatively weak on the ground.
I do, however, think that the contact/freestyle/slapping drills could be helpful. I’ve always found Muay Thai-style sparring to be frustrating, ’cause I think in a real fight, I’d be much more likely to just spaz and unleash everything, eye-gouges and all.
I dunno. I’m certainly no expert. A just-barely-level-two Krav guy. But I’d love to have the opportunity to try out some of these other RBSD systems. Which brings me to another point: is there any benefit to going to one of these two day seminars? It takes me weeks to incorporate new basics in Krav. I guess I feel like I’d learn something just well enough to do it wrong. With no instructor to help me along, I’m afraid I’d be wasting my time.
Interesting sites. I, too, found the first one to be most interesting. The more I read about Systema and other forms, the more it makes sense. Practicing slow and mastering the movements is paramount. However, I am quick to say that I think it is that way in almost everything….baby steps first, crawl, walk, run. I do feel that sometimes it is overlooked because it is \”boring\” or \”cumbersome\”.
The Attack Proof method does not suggest going to the ground intentionally, for five reasons:
1. if you go to the ground, you can’t run away.
2. Your advantage of upright balance and rooting (explained in detail earlier) are negated.
3. in the real world, there is all sorts of things on the ground you don’t want to land on.
4. Weapons like knives eliminate most grappling techniques.
5. If there is more than one opponent, you’re screwed if you try to grapple.
I don’t completely agree with the author’s critique against groundfighting like BJJ, etc, because it assumes that when you grapple, you are going to use antagonistic muscles and tense up, which kills the flow and puts your strength against theirs, which is bad if you’re smaller (this is always assumed). This is often true, but you can manage to grapple without tensing up, like the Gracies, but this requires lots of skill. Either way, it is bad to speak in absolutes- that one is worth training in and one is not. This is why the system is so controvercial- because it spends a lot of time illegitimizing other systems- which seems to be mostly marketing because if you talk to John Perkins or Major Al, they are quite fond of other arts and work with all sorts of combat martial arts people- including krav maga.
The emphasis is that you fight on the ground ony if you accidentally end up there, and then get up. This follows from the WW2 combatives of Rex Applegate. That really strange freestyle method is designed around staying mobile on the ground and not tensing up or being contained or compressed. I’m not really too trained in this method, but I’m decent at the standup freestyle stuff that makes up the bulk of the book. Although I’ve trained in a good deal of the drills for a few years, I’m not skilled in the groundfighting or in dropping energy.
One of the things criticized in arts like ki chuan do and systema is the relaxation- because they say that in combat stress, people tense up. They suggest viewing animal reactions when fighting- alley cats, gorillas, etc. attack with blinding speed with no form in mind, with very little tension. This is how relaxation is supposed to work.
What I think that ki chuan do ignores is footwork and reacting to visual cues instead of tactile ones. These two things are more important in sportfighting. In real fighting, the type of footwork used is very short range, and is adressed by a method calle box stepping, a close quarters method of moving around the opponent, and stomping/dropping footwork (which I haven’t really incorporated) seen in other combatives like Carl Cestari’s stuff, except for dropping, which is different from the military drop step.
If you can, peruse through the book at a bookstore and decide if its something worth $19.95. I bought mine at a Borders after a friend recommended it.
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