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About the Russian Martial Art:
There are some downloadable videos…I am still smiling…:)
Systema is a joke if you ask me.
just my opinion.
I wouldn’t be caught dead fighting like that.
I think it’s mystical B.S. is just to sucker people in, a money grab.
I think the army in Russia trains combat sambo.
Just my two cents.
and remember, being top notch in one style is much better than being decent at many.
That’s okay. I think we can all find some pretty corney videos on the internet. I wouldn’t discredit Systema based on some of the videos provided.
Some moves work, some don’t….. even in Krav Maga.
What then, defines combat?
I enjoy reading alot the posts here, I don’t often post now-a-days, but I thought that it might be pertinent to take a look at another website that deals, in part, with martial arts and the requirements needed to cope with reality, which Systema (IMHO) doesn’t meet.
The website that I think really puts it nicely is:
They have alot of stuff that doesn’t pertain to martial arts but there is a section of the site you can go to called \”Truth in Combat\” and that is where the MA stuff is at. I would encourage you to take a look at the whole site as well, because it seems that the principles they employ in MA apply to other areas of life as well.
Anyway, just thought that I would make and observation/suggestion and put in my two cents!
Hello –
Systema guy here. Sorry to revive this old thread. I am not here to argue with anybody. In fact, I appreciate the obective way this discussion has been conducted. I just wanted to provide some info on issues that were raised.
1. As was pointed out systema is not the official style of spetznaz. There are many different types of spetz that do many different things including combat sambo, systema, and other styles. In fact, systema itself just means \”system\” in russian and can refer to different things. The commonly known systema in north america is that of Micheal Ryabko as taught by Vladimir Vasiliev. (Vladimir is in Toronto – that is why systema is popular there)
2. in my understanding the russian army commonly uses combat sambo for cqc training. However, I am an american and was never in the russian or soviet military to know for sure.
3. IMO (and many systema people would disagree with me) systema and KM skills and training are not incompatable. In fact, I think that they can be complimentary. Systema type training helps one become more aware of surroundings and options, KM type training (as I understand it) helps refine aggressive movement.
4. I checked out the-reality-check.com (interesting site mrchaucer – thanks for the link). I suspect that systema training influenced some of what they have written. \”Aliveness\”, \”Non-violent protection\”, and the stated principles of reality training are all fundamental to systema and systema training. Given this, I was not suprised to see that the writers had studied elements of systema under Al Mcluckie.
5. Though there are similarities I don’t think that videos from the gru website show Ryabko systema. That said – it looks like good stuff to me. I am curious as to what people here find objectionable about the movement.
Finally, props to CLFMak for a great post. You seem to know what you are talking about.
cheers,
EricEric, I appreciate you taking the time to post, and I hope you don’t take offense at mine.
My \”exposure\” to systema is very limited. I was loaned a video of Vlad’s (improvised weapons) and a couple of my students checked out a local class. In all honesty, the video was horrible. I truly thought it was a spoof (I hadn’t heard of Vlad at the time.) The kinds of things shown, in the manner in which they were shown, would honestly get someone seriously hurt or killed. Even at high levels, with extensive, intensive training, I find it hard to believe that those things could be pulled off when threatened with real violence. I really couldn’t believe that it was a genuine SD tape.
My students had relatively the same experience at the school they attended. They had good things to say about the people, but the training was not for them.
To each his own, and if it works for you, great. In my opinion, the things I’ve seen are not practical for real world self protection, though I’m told systema offers many other benefits.
Oh, it is also my understanding that systema is more of a martial art than say, Krav Maga, therefore achieving a level of proficiency quickly is not really a goal of systema (which is fine also, as long as practicioners understand that.)
Ryan – no offense taken.
I haven’t seen that particular video so I can’t comment on specifics. In general Vasiliev’s videos do not represent techniques as much as examples for movement. So, though you probably would never do anything exactly as you saw it done in that tape, you probably do have some new ideas of how ordinary items might be used for self-defense if necessary.
Systema training is quite different from most other MA training. It violates a lot of assumptions and expectations of what people consider martial arts or self-defense training to be. It is not for everybody – but I dig it and I am convinced that it produces people who can handle themselves quite effectively in hostile situations.
regarding:
quote :Oh, it is also my understanding that systema is more of a martial art than say, Krav Maga, therefore achieving a level of proficiency quickly is not really a goal of systema (which is fine also, as long as practicioners understand that.)I am not sure how to respond to this question. Systema doesn’t have any levels so there is no milepost to indicate when someone becomes proficient. I believe that people are better able to defend themselves after their first session and continue to improve for as long as they practice. There is no end point of systema – people can study it for a life-time and never be done.
I don’t know, but I assume that Krav Maga is probably the same.
I will be a bit rude, sorry.
Systema advertises itself as a military system. If you have to learn a military system for lifelong, when are you ready for the possible war?
I have seen many – not all – systema dvd-s. I have seen many styles in my lifes, even practised some, but this is the most unrealistic system I have ever seen. I have showed the videos to many people with real fighting background – bodyguards, military veterans, ringfighters. What I have got was either tears or smiles, but never ever heard anything like \”could work\”
Because I have many top VIP protection friend in the govermental sector, I could tell what was their opinion about systema VIP protection videos…:)Here is my theory:
Russia was always a kind of mysterious place for the west. (western europeans, americans.) They had very little real info about the country, so now it is easy to come with a system as a great russian so far secret martial art, which was taught only for special-special-special forces. But NOW, you can learn it…Interesting to know, systema is something you can not find ex-communist countries, because we know it practically does not exist…
The ex communist countries were using these systems:
– kyok sool – korean system
– sambo – the really used russian system
– karate
– ju jitsuThat is it. Systema is nothing, but business.
Kmman – you weren’t rude, just stating your opinions and sharing your experience.
quote :Systema is nothing, but business.Systema has become lucrative for some (although not nearly as lucrative as KM) but it is not just business. It is/was taught to some military personnel, and Ryabko was learning and teaching his style under the soviets back when he couldn’t have had much hope of ever profiting from it.
quote :Systema advertises itself as a military system. If you have to learn a military system for lifelong, when are you ready for the possible war?I said that one could train for a life time, but I also said that benefits of training are immediate.
quote :I have showed the videos to many people with real fighting background – bodyguards, military veterans, ringfighters. What I have got was either tears or smiles, but never ever heard anything like \”could work\”In the US systema is becoming quite popular with bodyguards, military veterans, ringfighters, police, bouncers and SWAT team members. I have trained in systema with all of the above. They take it seriously.
quote :Interesting to know, systema is something you can not find ex-communist countries, because we know it practically does not exist…It is/was not widely known, that is for certain, but I do know a number of russians who trained in systema (and other in systems that don’t make your list) prior to the lifting of the iron curtain.
Systema is not for everyone, and I am never going to convince doubters over the internet. I’ll stop trying. Hopefully I have at least cleared up some mis-conceptions.
cheers,
EricEric, I have yet to figure out the quote function and I post almost daily…..
That said, I am finally off military orders with the air guard and am back working my normal abnormal job…. We have a Systema Instructor here at my crew base and I am going to check it out in the next few weeks and will let the peanut gallery know what is good and what is not. If I find stuff that works I will add them to my DT classes, if not I will stick to my mostly KM based style. (Might as well be all KM the more I learn and as I work towards qualifying as a legit KM instructor.)
Anyway, I am always open to things that work and will incorperate them if I can. From what I have read, \”Testamonials…..\” one big thing systema has going for it is awareness. Any Situational awareness, (SA) you can add is a good thing. Remember, in a real life SD situation the worst thing you can do is get the deer in the headlight look and freeze up. IF systema teaches someone not to do that then it is a good thing for the most part. (Assuming one isn’t over confident and gets oneself killed instead of simply giving a thug his or her wallet……)
I will post on what I find after I actually have a night off to attend the course.
Interesting side note, there is a systema place in MKE but there is no KM. Luckily I am not here that much and have found KM elsewhere, or I would be a serious addict without a supply……
JC
Krav Maga is \”Hard\”. Systema is \”Soft\”
Krav Maga is direct. Systema is indirect.
Krav Maga is combat tested and proven. Systema is not (to any standard of proof that I would base my life on at this point).
Krav Maga is testable. Systema is not.
Krav Maga is based on a combat mindset. Systema uses \”psychic\” techniques..and yes, I mean like palm-reader type of \”psychic\”.
I think Russian Martial Arts are cool and have redeeming qualities. I’d study some of Scott Sonnon’s ROSS system priniciples and check out his site at rmax.tv (even though he’s not doing RMA anymore). In fact his Fisticuffs, IOUF and other material is fantastic.
Overall, I’d be VERY suspect of Systema though. I would NOT risk my life with Systema. Look at those clips out there, it’s ridiculous.
And to Jobs who said, \”Some things don’t work in every system, even Krav Maga\” I would beg to differ. Krav Maga is battle tested and evolving. If there is something that doesn’t work, it’s chucked and replaced.
Quick correction, I said there is no KM in MKE and there is a very good school in Racine, 20 minutes south.
I attended a class there tonight and was impressed with the instructors and the class in general.
Of course now the problem for me is I will be paying for KM classes in two different states.
Just wanted to add the correction,
JC.
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