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ok, so I was hoping to get some viewpoints on this scenario:
You’re in a verbal confrontation with someone and despite your best efforts it is escalating quickly – your antagonist puts their hand into their pocket. The current space between you both is about 4 or 5 feet. Question is once you see the hand go into the pocket or out of sight do you:
1. Create more space – a good thing dealing with a knife or other sharp weapon but possibly putting you outside the effective range for a gun defense and leaving you in a firearm “dead zone”;
2. Close distance – be in a good position to execute a gun defense, but leave yourself less room to detect and defend the edged weapon attack
3. Maintain current space – call it the “wait and see” tactic
I know there isn’t always a perfect cut and dried answer for every situation, but all other things being equal what is the “go-to” move? Thoughts?
Thanks!
CQC
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One of the options should be loud, clear verbal commands like “take your hand out of your pocket!” or “let me see your hands!”, and if they don’t comply or they start to produce a weapon, you should attack them (ideally on the side of the head/neck where their hand is low. I like the idea of the two handed ear clap for this job, since if it works it will disorient them, and if they use their other arm to try to block, you’ve got two hands on his one and can turn it into a waki gatame type arm lock all the way to the ground, so even if their other hand is going for a weapon, they won’t be in a position to attack you with it. We played around with this position a while back. The only way that they can attack you is to swing their arm behind their back, which has no power and will give you their weapon arm to put into a hammerlock or double wrist lock
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The better response is to stop thinking you’re Billy Badass and walk away. You should have never let it escalate to a point where your face with the possibility to put your training into action in the first place.
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Gunsotsu gave the perfect response….walk away!!!! If not possible, then CFLMak covers some valid thoughts on “where do we go from here?” IMHO
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i agree, walk away is a good line of defense, but not always feasible and if the person is intent on a fight then walking away may actually do more harm than good if you turn your back to the assailant. i believe in the JKD interception thinking. i’d rather strike as soon as he makes a move into the pocket than find out what’s in the pocket. swift kick to the groin or to a knee puts you at safe distance from a knife, and ear slaps are an effective tool as well. im a big fan of thai round kicks to the thighs or maybe even to the hand in the pocket itself. follow up as usual at that point with as many counter strikes needed to effectively end the situation. i’d rather strike first and strike hard than end up with a knife or bullet in my back.
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Do you think you can get to his wrist before he gets his hand out of his pocket?
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quote Don:Do you think you can get to his wrist before he gets his hand out of his pocket?I’ve done some experimenting with this, and if you go as soon as you see the arm go for the pocket, you can a good deal of times since they actually have to unclip and index their knife to open it so it’s a little slower than just reaching into their pocket (assuming that they don’t have an understanding of properly drawing a weapon). Actually sometimes I would get the arm as it was coming out of the pocket and being indexed, and the quick, forceful motion will cause them to lose their weapon. Does it always work? No, and I think it is best done with the same side going for their wrist and the other hand should be striking. The thing that really makes it near-impossible is if they have some idea of weapon retention. If they draw their weapon while blading their body and possibly creating a guard/shield/distancing tool with their other arm, you probably won’t get there in time and in that kind of stance you won’t be able to take their weapon. Add in a little footwork on their part (stepping away from you) and it gets even more difficult. I think then it’s best to try and lock their other elbow of their extended off hand while their attention is on retrieving their knife, and drop your bodyweight all the way to the ground through their arm. I like the idea of the waki gatame type armbar in an instance like this because you are positioned too far away for them to reach you, and if they switch the weapon to the other hand they still can’t reach you.
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thumbsup This is just the kinda of discussion I was hoping to promote…Thanks all!
@CLKMak – I’m looking closely at the armbar idea to add to the toolbox. thx.
@tech94 – Agreed as to strike first. LOL I can see some loudmouth catching a punch to the throat for not fishing their cell phone out of his pocket in timely order :D:So what if it was a gun not a knife? Would closing space and reaching for the concealed arm still be the best play if he was pulling a gun from behind his back from the waistline??
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quote seeq_QC:@CLKMak – I’m looking closely at the armbar idea to add to the toolbox. thx.It’s worth getting down because it’s very instinctive for people to grab the clothing up high to control and stabilize to strike with the other hand, and someone grabbing in this way is giving an opening to the lock (possibly after you hit them somewhere sensitive). It should look like this:
http://www.kaigan.fi/judo/kuvat/matto/wakigatame.jpgquote :So what if it was a gun not a knife? Would closing space and reaching for the concealed arm still be the best play if he was pulling a gun from behind his back from the waistline??I think that if someone is very hostile with you and they quickly put their hand behind their back or in the pocket, you should try to stop that motion and hit them as soon as possible. It could be any kind of small, dangerous weapon. If it is a pistol, you might be too late by the time your brain goes “hey, that guy’s got a pistol”.
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quote seeq_QC:ok, so I was hoping to get some viewpoints on this scenario:You’re in a verbal confrontation with someone and despite your best efforts it is escalating quickly – your antagonist puts their hand into their pocket. The current space between you both is about 4 or 5 feet. Question is once you see the hand go into the pocket or out of sight do you:
1. Create more space – a good thing dealing with a knife or other sharp weapon but possibly putting you outside the effective range for a gun defense and leaving you in a firearm “dead zone”;
2. Close distance – be in a good position to execute a gun defense, but leave yourself less room to detect and defend the edged weapon attack
3. Maintain current space – call it the “wait and see” tactic
I know there isn’t always a perfect cut and dried answer for every situation, but all other things being equal what is the “go-to” move? Thoughts?
Thanks!
CQC
To me the answer would be go in (close the distance) and strike. You never know what he is reaching in his pocket. If it¥s a gun and you run away you risk getting shot. This is my opinion. That distance and a weapon is too risky to runaway.
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quote Don:Do you think you can get to his wrist before he gets his hand out of his pocket?Hi Don, been a while.
I think the simple answer is yes with a disclaimer. In a controlled training environment where I know what the attack is going to be where its coming from and Iím drilling it you bet I think I can control the arm.
However I donít think thatís the issue, I think the issue is me. When I donít know whats coming, say we are in a conversation even when its heated if his hands are at his sides or even if one is gesturing and his side hand quietly floats behind him should I react? Well the logical answer is yes BUT do I?
Iíve been doing this a fairly long time and to be honest its my threat assessment gauge that needs work. I react when I see a threat not when I perceive a threat. Iím not saying thatís right actually I know its not however like I shared Iím being honest and admitting I may not do anything until I see a weapon.
Is a hand behind the back an immediate danger? Logically, yes, in practice, hmmm
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quote Benelli:Hi Don, been a while.I think the simple answer is yes with a disclaimer. In a controlled training environment where I know what the attack is going to be where its coming from and Iím drilling it you bet I think I can control the arm.
However I donít think thatís the issue, I think the issue is me. When I donít know whats coming, say we are in a conversation even when its heated if his hands are at his sides or even if one is gesturing and his side hand quietly floats behind him should I react? Well the logical answer is yes BUT do I?
Iíve been doing this a fairly long time and to be honest its my threat assessment gauge that needs work. I react when I see a threat not when I perceive a threat. Iím not saying thatís right actually I know its not however like I shared Iím being honest and admitting I may not do anything until I see a weapon.
Is a hand behind the back an immediate danger? Logically, yes, in practice, hmmm
Yeah I think Benelli has a point in that, while certain motions such as a hand in the pocket or behind their back does increase risk, it may also be a grey area where one may not be inclined to make assumptions. Emotions and responses can be hard to read, especially when people are upset. Perhaps someone who is quite obviously angry might not be as likely for a physical escalation as another who appears only slightly agitated but pulls out a gun.
So do you make the assumption in every circumstance? That would probably be the best choice theoretically for self-defense, but then you might be assaulting a guy who was merely pulling out his cell phone, or cigarette, etc.
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quote Gunsotsu:The better response is to stop thinking you’re Billy Badass and walk away. You should have never let it escalate to a point where your face with the possibility to put your training into action in the first place.Well that’s a given, but **** happens. It’s a very valid question. Maybe you’re dealing with a guy who just freaked out on you over a parking space, you try to calm the situation down, but he’s not being rational. The hair on the back of your neck starts to stand up. Speaking personally, I’m not turning my back on that guy. I don’t want to fight, but I don’t feel safe just walking away at the moment. It could easily happen that way…
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well, i carry a gun at work, so this might not work for your situation, but were taught, loud clear verbal commands in an authoritative voice (LET ME SEE YOU HANDS!) at the same time you move in strike (like your hand/elbow is going to come out the other side of his head, or the other popular option is a good solid roundhouse to the common peronial (go for muscle disruption) then quickly move back in a tactical manner, to create space, then follow with the appropriate action, most likely draw down on him, at which time you sprawl him out with verbal commands… hopefully.
like i said, might not fit into every real life situation.
but the ideas, are right. the first strike stuns, or in the case of common peronial, casues muscle disruption, either way it serves the same function. so the first strike stuns, then you use the extra time to create space to give you even more time to take the appropriate action, most likekly you’d use all the extra time to run. remember the very first martial art was running.
even in the case of a gun, i’d run, chances are he’s not trained to shoot and either way i’d take my chances and run in a wierd erratic zig zaggy crackheaded manner.
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Of course being rational people we would want to avoid the confrontation, but if it can’t be avoided…
If there is a verbal attack taking place and the assailant reaches into their pockets – wouldn’t an advance punch/palm strike and immediate kick to the groin be a reasonable approach? Moving to their dead side and taking them down?
I’m a newb and this would be my initial reaction – so I could use some education on this approach.
Thanks.
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