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We did basic choke defenses under extreme stress with multiple attackers and a non compliant choker. I could not believe how many times I left the choke there, never plucked and went into combatives (or attempted to) with the choke still on.
One thing is that attacker, wearing groin protection is uneffected by the strike to the groin but, in reality this could very well happen with some crazed assaulter.
A definite learning experience to address the immediate threat (the choke).
Re: Training Under Stress
One person in the middle of the circle….had to spin 5 times to get a bit disoriented. The people on the circle attacked (attackee had eyes shut) with either a front choke, side choke, or rear choke and the instruction to the attacker was not to let go of that choke hold no matter what. Once you got the attacker off, a new attacker came in.
I found the side choke the hardest to get off and like I said I often forgot to even address it. Even though they were real chokes.
Re: Training Under Stress
I love to hear this because it really highlights the importance of this kind of training… What you are experiencing is very common for many students. The other thing we see is the opposite, the student forgets the combatives and just does the pluck…
Sounds like your turning into a “stress training” junkie! 🙂
Re: Training Under Stress
I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.
And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn’t realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn’t begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won’t just be ignored.
I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don’t abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.
Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck….oh yeah…then kill.
🙂
Dave
Re: Training Under Stress
Just had my first taste of that last night, we split into groups of 4, 3 with tombstones and 1 in the middle with the lights out.
as we were tapped with the tombstones on either side or back we reacted with various elbow strikes. Wicked fun! can’t wait to add that to my choke training.Re: Training Under Stress
quote DKatman:I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn’t realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn’t begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won’t just be ignored.
I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don’t abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.
Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck….oh yeah…then kill.
🙂
Dave
Good point Dave. I glazed over the “no matter what” part… it’s not realistic unless the defender gets to do “no matter what” to get you to stop… this is a reality based system, so the training has to be realistic.
I love all those drills!!
Re: Training Under Stress
Let me clarify so we can give the instructor some props…..he did pick up on the fact that the attackers were unaffected (due to groin protection) and told everyone to somehow react in a realistic manner IF you are struck with a strike to the groin (remember, not everything hits).
This, of course, all after I went!
Truthfully, I can’t be all that confident my groin strikes were strong so I need to work on it.
Re: Training Under Stress
There seems to always be a few people who on purpose or accident don’t react when they are “hit” during drills. After a couple of reminders I generally tell the class if you’re partner is not reacting when you stop then just don’t stop one time… they will react.
Of course I don’t want to see students to actually get hurt but I’ve had a few “tough guys” who flat out said they would not be stopped by one kick or one punch or one elbow right to the nose…so I put them with other tough guys like themselves and let them bang on eachother for a couple of classes…eventually it all works itself out.
Back to the origional topic I enjoy the stress drills very much. I also like having random attackers during pad work that will come up behind and bear hug, choke, knife slash whatever we are working on that night. Keeps people on there toes.
Re: Training Under Stress
Agreed, I don’t try and run fight club (Palahniuk style) but I don’t want somebody trying to train safely getting injured b/c there partner can’t or won’t control themselves. That behavior has to be stopped early or a bully mentality is either created or re-inforced and it effects the entire class.
Re: Training Under Stress
Tiger,
Good point and the exact point that has come up for us. The funny thing is it makes me think of one particular instructor who had prefaced the exercise telling the attackers to make it realistic then rolling his eyes and announcing to the class that if your attacker is not reacting at all to being struck to go ahead and glance them to the groin to remind them that they would react.
I have had a variety of partners. Many are fantastic. As you know each other more, you push each other more. But when it becomes a tough guy pissing contest, it can be hard to get away without giving it your all to get away.
Dave
Re: Training Under Stress
quote TigerUpperCut:Agreed, I don’t try and run fight club (Palahniuk style) but I don’t want somebody trying to train safely getting injured b/c there partner can’t or won’t control themselves. That behavior has to be stopped early or a bully mentality is either created or re-inforced and it effects the entire class.Good point. When I trained in Krav we had a bruiser like that. He broke my ankle during a ground work exercise.
Re: Training Under Stress
quote DKatman:I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn’t realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn’t begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won’t just be ignored.
I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don’t abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.
Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck….oh yeah…then kill.
🙂
Dave
It is VERY possible for an attacker not to feel a FULL power groin kick. We had an incident here about 6 weeks ago where an inmate attacked an officer with a blunt weapon. During the encounter the inmate was kicked full force no less than eight times with ZERO effect. No drugs or alcohol on board…just pure rage and adrenaline. No single strike or type of strike insures victory.
Re: Training Under Stress
thanks resqr1. I was reading these posts at work today and couldn’t help but think about how people, especially when they are starting out rely so much on those groin strikes. I think maybe part of the problem is the way it is taught.
everyone needs to understand that the plucks followed by a groin strike is not the technique. the technique is to pluck (Defend) and counter as close to simultaneous as possible and follow up with more strikes to prevent subsequent and possibly worse attack. the defense and counter is what shifts the momentum of the attack temporarily, just enough for the defender to do what is necessary. whether the counter is a groin strike, a right straight, or a headbutt does not matter. you do whatever is appropriate and necessary and you don’t expect that the first strike will finish it for you.
if the initial groin strike has no effect, the elbow number one or two knuckles applied aggressively to the back of the skull via the nose that follow the groin strike will. i have yet to meet or hear of someone who has conditioned his or her face.
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