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Jerry,
State law varies on this stuff, shooting someone who poses and immediate and possibly deadly threat to a third party is within the \”defense of others\” clause in Virginia–At least according to a couple lawyers who work in the field. Hell, in texas, it’s legal to shoot in defense of property, which I think is crazy!
Yes that is a bad tactical situation, and people who do not take tactics classes, or regularly hit the range are dumb CCWers. But your attack was a little over the top. I’m not advocating shooting the guy when he sucker punched the idiot on the phone. But had he been kicking the guy while he was on the ground, and no one was behind him, it’s a far less complicated situation. The only issue then is what’s in the parking lot if you don’t hit center mass, and with a guy that big, there’s a lot to hit.
Re:
quote \”runnergirl\:Um, yeah, I would also pull a concealed weapon in that situation. At least by my state law, it’s well within self defense/defense of others to shoot in that situation. My only concern would be that 9mm wouldn’t be enough stopping power with all that blubber.The victim was on the ground within seconds, the only possible issue with using a firearm was the guy behind them in the corner at one point.
While I have never worked in Virginia, I do know that the use of deadly force must be justifiable… and even if you are not charged criminally, are you ready to answer a civil suit for defending someone who wouldn’t even defend himself? Have you seen the elephant? Have you ever drawn a weapon in close quarters, surrounded by bystanders, and fired into the flesh of a living breathing human being? Yeah, it’s easy in a video game, but in real life there are no do overs.
So, legally speaking, what should have been the reaction of the bystanders in this situation? Sounds like using guns, pepper spray or any other type of weapon would have been out of the question. So, what could they have done? Maybe try and put themselves between the attacker and the victim, trying to convince the guy to stop hitting the other guy? Then, if that would have infuriated the attacker and he would have turned on the Good Samaritan he would have then been justified to hit the big guy.
Of course, that could be risky with a guy that big. You might just make him mad and end up getting hurt yourself. It would be so much simpler to just hit him from behind with something heavy like a chair or something, but then again, that probably wouldn’t be justified either.
Of course, if all of the bystanders would have stuck together and tried to stop the big guy they might have been able to stop him or hold him back, but I guess the whole thing probably didn’t even last very long and was over before a lot of the people even realized what was going on (as I said I only saw it once on the news, so I’m not sure how long it actually lasted). And of course, nobody wanted to go first in that situation, they might have been waiting for someone else to step in.
I think in a situation like that you would want to help, but you just never know what you are allowed to do and that itself may become a reason for not getting involved. It may be easier if you are an off duty police officer. You are better trained and later on people might trust your professional judgement on what type of force it was necessary to use. Although, then again, if you are a white cop and shoot a black guy they might call you a racist or something like that.
Re: Violent assault caught on tape
quote \”Ktulu\:If that was me, I am Deaf and communicate via American Sign Language. I saw both the edited and unedited verisons. That woman was not right to do that and then I would know she was manipulating her status as a woman jabbing her finger in my face to set me or anybody in that room up for a beating and the black guy comes in I would immediately have been ready to fight and let him throw the first punch but not allowing it to connect to my face and throw a punch to his throat and grab his arm and then break it in half… no matter if blood, ripped flesh and bone is showing I would beat that guy till he can not get up to start another fight and the woman I would take her hand to hand combat into a non lethal submission hold since she is a lady until the police arrived and identify myself as a Deaf man to the police with my driver’s license and Deaf identification emergency card as well as gesturing to the police that I am Deaf. ( I don’t know what was said by the white guy and he could have just left that white guy alone since he is a big guy and it is obivous he has no training in hand to hand combat the issue is still he should not have started an assault wheter the person had training or no training and he should have been smart enough to pull his girlfriend out of the store beside that black guy had no hand to hand combat training just being stupid and savage for no another reason than to sastify his own ego which will prove stupid and fatal to him and 4 years in prison … he should have gotten 20 years in prison the white guy did nothing wrong except shoot his mouth off the black guy pays for the white guy’s hospital bill also with work in prison and a police guard with 12 gauge shotgun and German dog patrolling the work line the black woman goes to prison for 15 years for assault with intent to cause trouble possible riot etc throw the book at that black woman )
I can’t see pulling a gun on that guy. If he began kicking him while he was down, its much more possible that it would be a lethal situation. But it was mostly a stand up beating, and the body can take a surprizing amount of this punishment. Hell, look at MMA- never a death, even with big guys like Tank Abbot and Gary Goodridge (although they are fighting tough guys). I’m assuming the guy went to the hospital with some injury, but will be okay next week. If someone was shot, it would be much worse, and the guy would still be beaten. Maybe pulling out a gun and threatening, up to the point that he was attacking the guy on the ground or going for you (and your gun). The same goes for knives- if he was concentrating on the first guy, it would be a simple matter to cut him behind the knee, but that would cause an excruciating amount of pain and trauma, and would take a hell of a long time to heal. Not worth it. It would be a much more tragic video if it went from a verbal affair to a beating to a shooting.
Old topic but I am new to this board. I don’t take Krav yet and it is pretty interresting to read the debates. I have a few observations/questions:
What is the view of a stun gun? Assuming that since it hasn’t even been mentioned, that they are frowned upon…. either useless or illegal. But if they work as advertised and I was a bystander with a stun gun/taser on my person, I would have walked up behind the gorilla and dropped him with it. He was big and focused on the beat down he was dishing out. Then I would have been MORE THAN HAPPY to drop the Ghetto Queen with it.
With a knife, I would think you would have to go for broke to kill the gorilla. Like a hard slash through the armpit, sweep it down and take out the back of the knee, maybe slash him across the forehead to scare him with his own blood. But I don’t think showing a blade or a non crippling stab would slow him down until he was done beating your ass.
I do agree that shooting him would be tough in that situation. Not by a self defense standpoint but by the fact that you are in a crowded room, close quarters. But if you were a bystander with a gun, I think that you could stand a good chance of diffusing the situation by pulling the gun and yelling at him, telling him to back off. Of course then he could come at you thinking you are bluffing. Which would mean you would have to shoot him, therebye causing a mass panick in the mall.
I don’t know what I would have done there. I would have wanted to do something. That white guy was a fool for running his mouth at the GQ but NO ONE should be allowed to act the way she did in public. It is a shame that something like that happens every day and nothing can be done.
I don’t like the prospect of the world being devided by people who are smart enough not to risk their lives standing up to people like that and people who know that they can do whatever they want without consequece. Very depressing to me.
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quote \”CLFMak\:…..body can take a surprizing amount of this punishment. Hell, look at MMA- never a death, ……Two things,
First, If there has never been a death in MMA, but obviously people in the real world have been beaten to death, then that would make MMA a poor comparision to Realistic Fighting Arts. another point for the sport vs. real arguement that happens elsewhere all the time….Second, I remeber a guy went over to Russia and got killed in a MMA event, and his family couldn’t even afford to fly his body home. Seems like someone in Canada died after an event(?) and that Lady was killed via head trama in the Tuff Man contest. Several boxers have also died directly from Pro and Amatur Fights. Not to mention the other permenant injurys suffered. So People do die in MMA, (ignore point 1 above 🙂 )
Guns are best in these situations for POINTING and giving commands like \”STOP\”. You don’t have to shot the guy most of the time…..
As far as I had known, no one has died in MMA. I’m sure I’ve overexaggerated. I was thinking of the UFC, and sort of forgot about all of the other MMA out there. I’m just saying that in a great number of matches, people can take a lot of punishment without long term damage, even when people take very strong punches, knees, and throws (There’s one where Caol Uno comes down at such a weird angle it looks like he surely would have died). As I understand it, when people die in the street its usually a result of being smashed head first into hard ground (the ground always being a big variable when it comes to sport vs street). My brother was telling me a couple months ago that some homeless guy tried to rob him, and my brother (about 6’3 and 230) ended up fighting this guy, throwing him on the ground, and hit him in the hear really hard, against the pavement, and the guy went limp. He wasn’t sure if he was unconscious or dead. I didn’t know how to react to this story. When he told me, it was far past the time when anything could be done.
Boxing has its own issues with head trauma- more so than in MMA because of the gloves worn- softer but allowing for heavier shots and transmitting more force. I’ve read that historically many have died in muay thai due to elbows and knees, and an old manual from around the turn of the century said that some of the deadleist techniques were grabbing the hair and punching the throat, and kicks to the liver (which caused internal problems that couldn’t be cured). This is from one of Carl Cestari’s articles.A few days ago I broke up a fight effectively by brandishing a weapon. I probably didn’t respond in the wisest way, but I did what I did. I was driving down a four lane street and saw two guys struggling on the ground near a business park. One was mounted on the other. I did a big U turn and parked. I got out of my car and grabbed my heavy wooden sword (thinking back, this probably wasn’t a good idea). Then, I stood outside the car and watched to see if I should intervene, because I got there somewhere in the middle of the fight and the guy on top didn’t seem to be attacking violently- just maintaining his position. They saw me there, and I couldn’t have looked more ready to fight- I was coming home from my studio, so I was sweaty, dressed in black, and had a giant stick slung over my shoulder. They both got up and went in opposite directions.
Sorry, I ramble on sometimes.Why of course, no-one wants to fight the crazed Ninja in the park…
This shows how clothing can be a deterrent sometimes. It makes me think of this guy I used to see in the elevator. He wasn’t very big (bigger than me, but not a giant). I imagined what I would do if the guy suddenly attacked me (there was no reason to suspect that he would, I just did this for practice, to think about my possible reaction). He didn’t appear to be very tough and since he was relatively small I thought it shouldn’t be too hard to fight or even beat him. But then one day I saw the same guy wearing a UFC shirt or something and I noticed how right away that made me think – if he was wearing a shirt like that he was probably a fan of the UFC and as such he might know something about fighting. He might even be very skilled. So a simple piece of clothing altered my perception of the guy’s possible fighting skills and if I had been the bad guy, it might have deterred me from attacking him. Just something your story reminded me of.
What happened to that homeless guy your brother shoved into the ground? Did he regain consciousness? Did your brother call the police? Or did he just leave him there?
the guy in the pizza place
Now I might just be a youngblood thinkin I’m invincible, but I don’t think that guy would have been much of a threat to a trained fighter. I’ve only done Krav for a couple of months, and have background from childhood in boxing and kung fu, but I’m pretty sure a good few punches would knock that guy out. As a reforming fat bastard myself, I can say from experience that fat won’t protect you from a solid punch. There are plenty of guys out there who weight 100 pounds less than me who would take me out in a second, and I think anyone with the right aggressive mindset who attacked nonstop would overwhelm that guy in 20 seconds or less. He took like a minute between punches! Just my two cents.
To those who advocated OC in this situation, notice in this video (which really deserves its own thread, since there’s a lot to note here) who is effected by the spray (and who isn’t.)
http://www.negative-shock.net/view-408
Oh, and saxman, yes, I think there’s a lot of \”youngblood\” talk happening there. 🙂 😉 Have you ever seen George Foreman fight? Anyway, you’re thinking purely physical here, and there’s a time and place to get an \”easy\” knockout, but when the fight’s on (because you failed the pre-contact stages), the knockout becomes much more difficult.
george foreman
Foreman was a world class fighter, this guy is NOT. And with all due respect, it’s not because he had a little extra meat on him that he was so tough (and was only a little). As far as what you’re saying about the engagement being started already, that’s true for the moron who didn’t see it coming. Granted, the smartest move if he wanted to avoid conflict would be to leave out the back once the woman went out front, but I’m just saying, and at 6’1\” 280 myself, I’m bigger than most, but I know I would have jumped in, because I’ve done so in the past. Also, the weight thing works differently for different folks: if I lose 80 pounds, I’ll be ripped, whereas the gorilla guy was probably 150 overweight just from fat. I’m pretty sure a solid punch from the right angle would put that guy down, or if not, a kick to the side of the knee, a kick to the balls, some knees or even a tackle would have taken him down. That’s what Krav is all about, right? Being able to take out someone bigger or more threatening in order to save yourself or someone you want to help is the whole point of training. If it’s not, we may as well do cardio kickboxing.
Thanks for letting me know about Foreman’s background (he was actually a world class boxer.) 😉 The Foreman reference was used because of your reference to the big guy’s handspeed and timing. Also, the guy was suckerpunched. That’s real fighting and violence at its core, and to think that it would be easy to knock this beast out in the midst of this attack is a bit naive. The punch that knocks you out is the one you don’t see, but hitting a moving target on the chin or jaw is not as easy as many may think (particularly with the effects of an adrenaline dump.)
Also, I wouldn’t recommend relying on a kick to the groin to drop anybody, especially in a situation like this, knees would mean closing the gap and grappling with someone of great size and rage, and tackling/takedowns would be worse (in a pretty small space, I might add.)
Regarding your weight discussion, I really didn’t understand your point. 😕 I lost something in the translation, I’m afraid. 🙂
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