A return to Krav….maybe.

[bobg]

OK, here goes…

I did Krav for a few months, several years ago. I had to stop due to work, and moving cross country a few times, having a baby, etc….just life,

So, here I am ready to return to some training, and I find myself in a bit of a quandary.

I had wanted to return to Krav, but I am increasingly ingtrigued by the idea of doing BJJ and muay thai. I have the fortunate opportunity to either go for KM or BJJ/MT…but not both.

I know this is a KM forum, so the opinons are biased (which is only natural), but please read with open minds and give your opinions.

The reason I am looking into BJJ/MT started with looking for some training for my four year old son. He’s too young for KM, and almost all schools for his age are TKD. I wanted him to learn something that he could use when he begins school so I wanted something more realistic for his age like judo, wrestling, bjj, etc.

I visited a few schools, and I was impressed. I started doing more research on BJJ and saw many video’s of BJJ vs some style. It seems that no matter what style, the bjj iguy would end up being able to take them down.
I realize there is a difference between those ‘contest’ and real self defence. But it does show that if someone knows how to grapple, then can get you down and dominate.

Training in MT would give better striking than KM. Training in BJJ would give better ground work than KM. In a real situation, I would think MT would be great for a striking type fight, and if it goes to the ground, the BJJ would begin.

Its getting the best of both worlds….better striking, better ground. Also, I know bjj is a sport for submissions. But that doesn’t mean in a feal fight, punches will not be thrown when on the ground.

So, what are your thoughts?…and thanks.

[lotar]

Try all 3 clubs, then decide, remember though Bjj is a sport.

[jburtonpdx]

I understand your quandary. It would seem that being able to do this with your child would be great for the both of you. Another bond that could be made.

Have you asked the Krav school if they have any kind of kids program though? Sometimes they will, many of the premier martial arts schools that offer Krav have some sort of little ninjas or something like that.

Where I take Krav they are also a TKD school and my 9 year old is a student there. The instructor is also a certified Krav instructor though and has definitely \”adjusted\” his tkd to be a bit more self defense worthy along with incorporating some jiu-jitsu which he is also studying. My 12 year old daughter is now a level 2 Krav student at the school, and does the ground stuff that the school is offering as well.

In any case dont write them off without checking them out first. I know there is the whole McDojo thing with alot of the tkd schools, that does not mean that they are all bad though.

[oldkravdude]

This is a biased krav reply! You said that MT would give you better striking and BJJ would give you better ground so it sound like you want to take something mainly for self defense…

The MT first. MT is still a sport. Pretty vicious but a sport with rules none the less. Krav \”borrows\” from anything that works so a lot of Krav’s kicks are MT. Krav is the most batttle tested self defense system there is. It is used all the time by the IDF. Any strike that is better or more powerful has been adapted into the system, trust me. There is no pride in krav, if there is something better we adapt it. Staying safe is the answer. I am training a former MT national team member. She didn’t have answers for groin attacks because it is against MT rules. She had no clue what to do when choked, taken to the ground, confronted with a handgun, etc. etc.

The BJJ. Same thing here. It is a sport. It’s good stuff and I am taking it myself but it is limited. If a BJJ guy is confronted with two or more attackers, a weopon, etc. he is in a lot of trouble. The good ones will admit as much. Krav’s ground isn’t bjj to stay on the ground and see who is better there but it is techniques to hurt these guys and get the heck off of the ground!!

For straight self defense there is nothing that can equal Krav in taking a person from limited or no self defense skills to being able to defend themselves faster than Krav Maga.

For kids anything with the discipline, respect, etc. is good at a young age. I guess if I wanted to make them complete and they couldn’t take Krav yet I would get them some wrestling, boxing, bjj and a kicking art. Makes a complete skill set. Kinda the same they would get with just Krav (get my point?).

Very biased, I know but my honest opinion. Good luck!

[unstpabl1]

I’m not biased in any way shape or form. I don’t take krav and don’t particularly care what you do 😀 I mean that kindly, it doesn’t affect me one way or another

MT is a great system, but as has been pointed out its a sport as is bjj. It also teaches fights of mutal consent. Self defense is neither. I would argue that the striking is better in Thai as they have a similar structure. Boxing was Imi’s base and when you look at krav it has more angles of attack. As far as bjj, krav teaches ground fighting including submission stuff, but the focus being SD it doesn’t want you to roll around on the ground to get stomped to death by the guys friends. It also teaches multiples and weapons which the other systems don’t

Part of the problem is your needs and your sons current needs are at different places at the moment.. You have a family to protect.

I don’t know about where you live, but in L.A. bjj is very expensive. So I’m going to make another suggestion that would in the long run be better for your son at 4 years old. Frankly if I had a kid or could start this stuff over again this is what I would do. I would look into judo for your son. Its eway cheaper than bjj. Here bjj goes for around $160 a month for 3xs a week. Judo down the block was $20 a month at the Japenese community center. Why spend the money. You have to see if the kid likes it. Judo also teaches ethics and is used to teaching kids. It’ll give your son a solid grappling foundation to build upon as well as developing mental toughness. Also it’ll teach your son how to fall. A highly under rated skill. That way if he falls off a skateboard or bike, he’ll handle it. I know because I’veseen it and expirienced it. Judo also gets into self defense tchs.

For yourself any system that requires aliveness will be benificial. I love training with the Thais, but what is the purpose of you training. MT & BJJ will give you a great foundation. If your training for SD, krav or JKD may be the better option, because it would be rare for a 1 on 1 altercation or one without weapons.

Only you can answer the why your training question. I really want to emphasis looking into judo for your son. To me its a no brainer 😉
For yourself.Decide why your there. Look at all the options in your area and how you feel about the instructors.

Good luck

[vwr32]

I’m biased as well, but towards muay thai. If I were to pick one for self-defense, krav wins hands down. What people have said is accurate, the differences being bjj and muay thai are ring sports where you only face one attacker and a referee makes sure everyone is playing by the same rules.

Krav utilizes the same elbows, fists, knees, shins etc… so I have to diagree you’ll end up a better striker with MT. The way you get to be a better striker is by practice… and there’s plenty of that in either disciplines. The thing about krav, you’ll develope usable skills very fast, that’s the nature of the teaching. I’ve never been in a ring, but have had more than my share of bar fights when I was in the military… the very last thing I wanted to do was end up rolling around on the ground trying to put someone in a submission hold while the guy’s buddy was standing there trying to decide if he was going to jump in. Your stand up has to be top notch outside the ring, and it’s a career ender for you if you don’t have it and step into the ring professionally. Krav teaches take-down defenses as well as some submission, but I’ve always seen it as a method for eliminating the threat as fast as possible… even if there’s a knife, gun, or multiple attackers.

And as much as I love MT training, I have to give it to BJJ… once they get a hold of you, you’re toast if you have no plan on the ground. In this clip you’ll see the poor muay thai fighter was completely out of his element.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dDzTS0H6dI

[giant-killer]

So, it wouldn’t be possible that your son goes to one place and you go to another? If you are looking for SD for yourself, I’d definitely recommend KM over the other two, although some knowledge especially in BJJ can be very useful. Luckily at the NTC they have separate BJJ classes and also MMA classes to compliment KM.

If a KM studio near you has kids classes, that may be good for your son (although I think he would have to be at least five to get started). unstpabl’s Judo idea sounds interesting, too, would save you some money and you could always enroll him in something different once he gets a little older.

_________________
Giantkiller

[maskedkat]

Re:

quote \”vwr32\:

And as much as I love MT training, I have to give it to BJJ… once they get a hold of you, you’re toast if you have no plan on the ground. In this clip you’ll see the poor muay thai fighter was completely out of his element.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dDzTS0H6dI

Ouch! Devastating. 😉
I see that in my home all the time. Krav MaPaw.

[jewishfitness1976]

Yes, I agree Krav Maga wins hand down too and if you decide not to enroll your son right now at this point then you will have to get really creative with teaching your son self defense moves that you know really works. Here is a good example, Pay attention and you will see what I am talking about, Somebody’s father taught him very good.

http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/4308

You owe it to your son to have realistic self defense training, of course appropriate for his age and everything else. You will have to work up different scenarios where your son can really use life and death emergencies for example, G-d forbid somebody was going to do something bad to his mother, your wife then your son is in the house then he can come in the room and grab something and cause blunt head trauma injury to the bad guy or throw vicious hand blows to the windpipe of the bad guy’s throat while ripping out the bad guy’s eye and not allowing the bad guy to grab your son and he ducks, side stepping then delievers a deveasting kick to the bad guy’s private area and finish him off with repeated hand blows that turn into hard punches to the nape of the bad guy’s neck where the spine meets on the back of the bad guy’s neck and he is done, he can’t walk for life, more likely the bad guy will be killed for trying to do something bad against his mother and your wife. Your son is the winner.

The moral of the story, Always give your son winning moves and make him pyschologically, mentally, physically capable of winning and the ability to see an opening to win and end the fight really fast. He needs to have the mentality of a winner that wins, no matter what. Street or sport, He needs to win by giving him the right kind of training that you know will work plus Krav Maga too. Of course, I admit I am naturally gravitated towards Krav Maga but I also realize the need for your son to be able to win that school yard fight because that will help him alots later in life, as a man too. Have fun spending the time with your son, Talk to him about school, cars, girls, fast cars and fast motorcycles and everything else while training in Krav Maga and teaching him what you clearly know actually works in real life. 8)

[unstpabl1]

Re:

[quote=\”JewishFitness1976\”]
You owe it to your son to have realistic self defense training, of course appropriate for his age and everything else. You will have to work up different scenarios where your son can really use life and death emergencies for example, G-d forbid somebody was going to do something bad to his mother, your wife then your son is in the house then he can come in the room and grab something and cause blunt head trauma injury to the bad guy or throw vicious hand blows to the windpipe of the bad guy’s throat while ripping out the bad guy’s eye and not allowing the bad guy to grab your son and he ducks, side stepping then delievers a deveasting kick to the bad guy’s private area and finish him off with repeated hand blows that turn into hard punches to the nape of the bad guy’s neck where the spine meets on the back of the bad guy’s neck and he is done, he can’t walk for life, more likely the bad guy will be killed for trying to do something bad against his mother and your wife. Your son is the winner.

quote]

😯 You don’t teach a 4 year old edge of hand to throat shots, cause the first time little Bobbie comes over and they get in a little wrestling match, your sweet bundle of joy EOH’s little Bobbies adams apple or permanantly blinds him with an eye gouge. Why not just give the kid an AK and let him go play with the neighbors 👿 AArrgghhh

[jewishfitness1976]

Re:

quote \”unstpabl1\:

😯 You don’t teach a 4 year old edge of hand to throat shots, cause the first time little Bobbie comes over and they get in a little wrestling match, your sweet bundle of joy EOH’s little Bobbies adams apple or permanantly blinds him with an eye gouge. Why not just give the kid an AK and let him go play with the neighbors 👿 AArrgghhh

Whoa !!!! 😯 I did not read closely that he was 4 years old, excuse me I thought I read his son was 14 years old and he said that his son was still too young. Sometimes I read things then I have to re-read it again. You know similiar to selective hearing, LOL.
😀 Now I am alittle embarrased, man !!!!! 😳

[unstpabl1]

Re:

quote \”JewishFitness1976\:

[

Whoa !!!! 😯 I did not read closely that he was 4 years old, excuse me I thought I read his son was 14 years old and he said that his son was still too young. Sometimes I read things then I have to re-read it again. You know similiar to selective hearing, LOL.
😀 Now I am alittle embarrased, man !!!!! 😳

Cool.

[bobg]

Thanks to all for your responses. Some very good and sound advice. And a few reminders of what drew me to KM in the first place.

The KM school does not have kids classes. All they have is KM. The non-KM schools I did look at for him were not practical at all. They were teaching them jumping front kicks and when they punched they did not correct the form at all. The wrists were bent and hands down, etc.

They made it ‘fun’ for the kids, but at $110 a month…..no, I can have fun with him at the park. I do understand that they are children, and they need to make it fun, but it was just not practical. Thatís what lead me to bjj.

They can make it fun, and they get good contact experience. What kid does not like to wrestle 🙂 Also, I figure most kid fights are shove-push-clinch-fall-wrestle. So, I wanted him to have that experience.

Alot of good points about taking the best of everything. I’ve done searches, but there doesn’t seem to be any judo available close by, that was actually my first choice for him. I think judo is great for children.

Good video about those cats. I’ve seen it before but itís been awhile, it always makes me laugh.

I’ll be looking again for judo for him, but most likely he’ll go to the bjj school. Myself….most likely I will go back to KM. I was reminded by your posts, why I went in the first place. I think I just got caught up in the bjj/mt moment.

I can see that striking in KM can be as good or better than MT. I guess my last concern is ground fighting. I realize that KM doesnít want to go to the ground for many reasons (and I agree with that), but….it does happen. My concern is how are KM techniques on the ground?

For example, with all things being equal (size, time in training, skill level, etc) what happens if your taken to the ground by a wrestler or bjj’er?

Wrestlers and BJJ have good takedowns. If someone is skilled, then can pretty much take someone down, even if being hit. Are KM’s techniques on the ground good enough to escape and get back up…or does the bjj guy own him?

Thanks again for all your responses, you have all been great.

By the way, the KM school is Jack’s http://www.kravmagadfw.com.
I won’t post the link for the BJJ/MT school, but it can be found in google using star bjj.

[unstpabl1]

Re:

[quote=\”Bobg\”]

They can make it fun, and they get good contact experience. What kid does not like to wrestle 🙂 Also, I figure most kid fights are shove-push-clinch-fall-wrestle. So, I wanted him to have that experience.

Alot of good points about taking the best of everything. I’ve done searches, but there doesn’t seem to be any judo available close by, that was actually my first choice for him. I think judo is great for children.

Exactly. Plus expense is a big deal. Never sign a contract for a kids class, if possible. He may hate it and forcing him to attend does nobody any good at 4. Judo schools don’t usually advertise in the yellow pages. There is a great judo web site judoinfo something. Just google judo it’ll come up, they’ll help you. It has a forum

I’ll be looking again for judo for him, but most likely he’ll go to the bjj school. Myself….most likely I will go back to KM. I was reminded by your posts, why I went in the first place. I think I just got caught up in the bjj/mt moment.

. My concern is how are KM techniques on the ground?

For example, with all things being equal (size, time in training, skill level, etc) what happens if your taken to the ground by a wrestler or bjj’er?

Wrestlers and BJJ have good takedowns. If someone is skilled, then can pretty much take someone down, even if being hit. Are KM’s techniques on the ground good enough to escape and get back up…or does the bjj guy own him?

I’ll let km handle most of the question. I gonna play devils advocate for a moment. I carry 2 knifes on me at all times, please take me to the ground and try to submission me. I will gut you like a deer and my banger brothers will stomp your head in while your jocking for position. And even if none of these scenarios take place people will step in to break up thr fight, knocking over bottles and tables and pulling you off of each other, while you look for submission. The krav I’ve seen taught ground fighting and submission fighting. I think there is a huge difference. Bjj teaches submission fighting its a chess game. In a SD situation you don’t have the luxury of playing chess. Thats wy the ground and pound became so effective in mma with time limits.

[bobg]

unstpabl1, I agree with your scenerio but I was looking at a different situation.

You’re alone, he has friends. Your friends are not there to help you. You’re taken down before you have a chance to take your knife out. Someone skilled in bjj can have you locked up quickly, and you may not have the chnace to get to your knife. (assuming that you did not begin to fight with your knofe out and ready).

This is where I was baseing my question on…would the ground techniques be effective enough against a somewhat skilled BJJ’er to escape and get back on your feet before his friends join in?

Thanks for the input.

[Author]

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