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oops, forgot to add…
Even if BJJ’er is going for a submission on you in a real fight scenerio, the submission can be taken to a harsher level, such as a break. And even if all it is is a submission and not a break, you have still lost and are under his control….with his friends around.
I don’t train in krav,so it would silly for me to speak on what krav is.
Though, bjj mostly trains on the floor. They really don’t spend a ton of time on take downs,which suprised me
Krav is a military self defense system at heart. Thinking from that frame of reference answers your question. As well that the NTC has taught bjj from the beginning. Bas Ruttan and Oleg Tartakov(ufc,sambo) taught at ntc as well. they have an understanding of the ground. I killed Oleg’s last name 😆
There are a few websites with kravs sylabus on them. Search it, its fundamental sound
Good luck.
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quote \”Bobg\:oops, forgot to add…Even if BJJ’er is going for a submission on you in a real fight scenerio, the submission can be taken to a harsher level, such as a break. And even if all it is is a submission and not a break, you have still lost and are under his control….with his friends around.
You’ve certainly painted the scenario to be a pretty desperate one for the person being attacked. But since we’re taking things to a harsher level, the krav student jams a thumb into the bjj’s eye socket… not something a strict MT trainee might even consider.
I’ve always liked the description on Atlanta Martial Arts Directory ( http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/index.htm#A ):
\”Krav Maga has no katas or specific sequences that must be followed. Students use the basic moves in conjunction with any one of a number of other moves to fend off an attack, the key idea being adaptability to new situations through improvisation. Emphasis is put on speed, endurance, strength, accuracy and co-ordination especially for intensive Krav Maga training.\” http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/kravmaga.htm
I would think someone from your scenario who is somewhat decent at bjj as you initially stated, has probably encountered an opponent trained in MT. Krav takes that training and removes the \”fair play\” aspect from it. I can practice muay thai strikes and kicks on my heavy bag all day, but that would never prepare me to deal with knife or multiple attackers.
And it’s not like you have to make a \”permanent\” decision now and never change. People really get hung up on the particular style and tend to overlook the individual behind the training. Pick something you’re going to enjoy and that is going to cover the bases you feel will be most important to you. I like the diversity of the training you get in krav classes, and studying muay thai on my own (can’t afford both right now). I might not last if someone drags me to the ground right now, but I’d like to think they’d have one painful trip thru my stand up trying.
One other point on Krav and these other systems. They are all good and someone good can defend themselves (except for maybe handgun, knife, etc.) with any of them. It comes down to how much time you have to practice. You can spend years perfecting an art. Krav’s claim to fame is that it is easy to learn and easy to remember. It takes you from zero to being able to defend yourself quicker than anything else that I know of. \”It’s so easy a caveman can do it\”!!
Another thing that blew me away with Krav (I had been in TDK for years) was the \”attitude\” training. You never stop, you do drills to make you fight through fatigue. Take the BJJ. Because they have you in a submission or break your arm doesn’t mean they win. Krav teaches to get up with that broken arm that you now have and beat the living @$#* out of them with your good arm and legs!! Defend yourself until one of you is unconscious! That’s Krav Maga.
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quote \”OldKravDude\:Another thing that blew me away with Krav (I had been in TDK for years) was the \”attitude\” training. You never stop, you do drills to make you fight through fatigue. Take the BJJ. Because they have you in a submission or break your arm doesn’t mean they win. Krav teaches to get up with that broken arm that you now have and beat the living @$#* out of them with your good arm and legs!! Defend yourself until one of you is unconscious! That’s Krav Maga.Yes!
For the best illustrationof that attitude, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9HrinSGOvs&mode=related&search=
NEVER SAY DIE!!!!
Not sure how much ground defense is taught at your KM school, you might want to ask. Do they have fighting classes? Do they spar in class, including takedowns and some ground fighting?
At the NTC we are fortunate to have a variety of classes, also separate BJJ classes, one boxing class and some MMA style classes, so we can learn these things in addition to the regular KM training. If there are no separate classes for these things at your school, I suppose they might mix them in with the regular classes.
There are some ground fighting moves in KM, most relatively basic and taken from BJJ. You’ll learn how to escape when someone is mounted (sitting on top of you) or has you in a headlock on the ground for example. The basic idea in KM is to get up as soon as possible and, of course, try to avoid the takedown in the first place if you can.
The scenario you described would be pretty difficult to deal with for anyone, no matter what style he practices, since it involves multiple skilled attackers. Also, the truth is, in that scenario, the BJJ guy has a big advantage over the KM guy. You don’t have friends, he does and he knows how to move on the ground, you may have some knowledge, but his skills are superior. Even if you do manage to get back up, his friends are there to kick you in the head or push you back down. Tough situation. Sure, the KM spirit is to keep on fighting, but it won’t be easy.
Also, even though eye gouges and bites are a good tool, there are plenty of positions a BJJ fighter could put you in, where it will be difficult to employ those tools. I know, because I try to think of the possibility of biting and eye gouging everytime I spar on the ground and I’ve been in situations where an opponent (especially a teacher 🙂 ) had my leg, arm or was mounted and I would not have been able to eye gouge or bite him from that position. Also, if he is on top and you try to do these things to him, he can do them back to you and he might be in a better position to do them. It may escalate the fight.
Just some things to consider. That’s why avoiding a takedown would be important. If you could do so at all, I would seriously consider adding some ground fighting to your KM, unless they work on it on a regular basis at your school. It can be a good compliment to KM training. Also, have you looked into MMA schools? Even better, because they also teach striking on the ground.
As for your son, BJJ training sounds good. It might give him some useful fundamentals and he could even share what he’s learned with you, that way you’ll get some free BJJ training. 😀
JewishFitness,
That was funny. I thought those were some pretty tough moves to recommend for a four year old and started to imagine a little 2 foot guy beating up multiple intruders with throat punches and the like, but if you thought he was 14 that explains it…. 😆
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GiantkillerGiant Killer, while the scenerio I described is difficult, it is also very common….with the exception of a skilled bjj guy. Many times when someone is alone, the attackers do have two or more people. Thays why they attack, they see an easy victim with him (or her) being outnumbered. And, like you said…you cannot always reach for the eyes, etc. Thats why I used that example. Very good advice, and thanks.
I can see that KM is the best self defense. It can match the standup portion, my concern is the ground portion. I have been/seen in real life many times, that someone who is somewhat a proficient striker, still get taken down. Now, if the other guy is somewhat skilled in bjj/wrestling….then it can get very serious very fast. Especially if he has friends.
My question now is about the KM ground defense (not so much as what they are called in the curriculam). Are the ground defenses good enough to escape and get back up from someone a little skilled in BJJ? Being that KM assumes being in the worse position. Lets say that you are not succesful or quick enough and get taken down (or fall), there isn’t much time before your arms are tied up.
I know there are alot of variables, and no system is perfect. I guess I am just concerend about the ground defenses being good enough without having to take a separate BJJ class.
Thanks to all. I will be going back to KM in a few weeks. it may not be perfect, but its the best available.
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quote \”Bobg\:Giant Killer, while the scenerio I described is difficult, it is also very common….with the exception of a skilled bjj guy. Many times when someone is alone, the attackers do have two or more people. Thays why they attack, they see an easy victim with him (or her) being outnumbered. And, like you said…you cannot always reach for the eyes, etc. Thats why I used that example. Very good advice, and thanks.
.Sorry for the devils advocate role 😈 but it kinda suits me this week 😆 I don’t post anywhere unless theres a point. Better things to do with my life 🙂
If you want to be real nitty gritty,your scenario does not require an empty hand response. 5 on one requires a weapon based response. Krav teaches improvised weapons. Second with numbers, their going to beat you down. not let one guy look for a submission. Look at bjj, how many times can you find a place to knee or grab their balls or bite. The reason wrestlers started winning UFC fights was they trained take downs. BJJ is one part of the puzzle. You only have so much time to train, so try to find the most complete you can find.
The answer to this question is yes. Why do you think I posted all the info on the high level instructors at NTC. Why were/are they there, so krav can see what they need to be able to defend against. Once you get the fundamentals down, you can always branch out. Self defense is different than sport, though sport fighters are a handfull because the train with aliveness. Krav does that as good as anyone.
Listen I wouldn’t tell you that if I didn’t believe it. I have my differences with these guys and won’t train with them, but the system and the instruction is usually very solid. All things being equal, instructor quality and all, it depends on your focus. Ring or Street. Ring can be converted easily to street, but krav takes into consideration weapons,multiples, and scenario training. Good Luck
I guess you would have to ask the teacher at your school how much ground fighting they incorporate. At the NTC, there isn’t too much ground fighting in the general KM classes, but, as I have said, we have the additional MMA and BJJ classes, where I’ve learned most of my ground fighting moves. But there may be more ground fighting at the KM school you’ll go to, you’ll just have to check.
You’d probably learn basic ground moves in KM class, also how to move on the ground if you are down and the attacker is standing. Things like kicking him, then getting back up quickly. There are two different escapes from the mount we practice sometimes in KM class and some headlock escapes. Of course, one never knows against a very skilled person, but hopefully those would help against an average attacker.
Of course, if he has several friends, that’s a difficult situation, even if it doesn’t go to the ground. You should learn some multiple attacker scenarios in KM class as well, that might help you avoid being taken down.
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GiantkillerI agree the attackers would most likely be in numbers, but that doesn’t always mean they’ll ALL be involved in the initial attack. And don’t count on witnesses to come to your aid. The old man who was beat yesterday was obviously no match for the attacker, in that scenario a little pepper spray canister on the keychain would have gone a long way. The attacker asked for a light while approaching, then started swinging. Not sure who I’m more upset with, the attacker or the people standing by watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW3mSfN8arcMaybe that’s the answer you’re looking for bobg? Krav covers a lot of bases, a little extra coverage from some legal self-protection might help with the gaps in ground work. And I can’t help but doubt there’s a lot of bjj experts mugging people. I’d be willing to bet the vast majority of attackers don’t expect much of a return at all… so if someone exploded with round houses, elbows, hammerfists etc, finding an easier target becomes key for them to avoid arrest.
Yes, I saw that video on the news. Thankfully, the old man wasn’t too badly injured, amazing considering the many blows he sustained.
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GiantkillerRe:
quote \”unstpabl1\:Though, bjj mostly trains on the floor. They really don’t spend a ton of time on take downs,which suprised meNot sure how this happened but Bjj actually spends a lot of time on takedowns and take down defenses. Every competition starts with 2 people standing up and points are awarded as things progress.
If you are intersted in BJJ you have to find a school that teaches both the street and the sport aspect of it. This would also require you to find a teacher who has actually fought and not just someone who is teaching you how to fight.
Many BJJ classes have dedicated time to stand up, takedowns, and defense of takedowns. This includes street principals such as getting out of a body lock, choke, etc and ending up with the option to continue fighting or walk away.
One thing taking something like BJJ will help all students of Krav out with is comparing techniques. Many times I have thought that KM techniques are superior to what I am being taught and other times just the opposite.
Good stuff!
Regardless of your personal preference or belief, I STRONGLY AGREE with the idea of exposing yourself to other training.
In the end, I believe in choosing one integrated training method (which is, of course, why I personally like KM so much).
However, some decent exposure to other systems will a) open your mind to other possibilities and b) give you a deeper understanding of your preferred system.
As far as KM goes, although I obviously recommend it to anyone, we don’t claim to be the only self defense option. KM’s focus is on simple, aggressive training that brings people to a high level of proficiency quickly. That works for many people…but for those who want other things, deeper aspects of grappling, etc. there are other very good options.
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quote \”johnwhitman\:As far as KM goes, although I obviously recommend it to anyone, we don’t claim to be the only self defense option. KM’s focus is on simple, aggressive training that brings people to a high level of proficiency quickly. That works for many people…but for those who want other things, deeper aspects of grappling, etc. there are other very good options.John
Thats actually from my POV, one of kravs biggest strengths and why I recommended it. It’s fundamentally sound and will bring you up to speed quickly. Once you have a solid foundation, you can decide what to specialize in. But its one of the few commercial systems to give you a solid foundation in combatives. The main question is why are you training? Once that question is answered, what are your options. At that point instrutors being equal follow your gut. Good post John, of course your gonna be biased, but your not close minded
mike
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