- This topic has 52 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 9 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Jeez, look at how many kids are on that thing and the time in the upper right corner. Damn parents need to be shot for letting their kids stay out so late unattended.
Oh, and from the looks of it, the guy screwed himself. He has the bike between himself and the door, and his back to the open area of the train. He should have been standing with his back against the door, and his bikein between him and the rest of the car. He had no where to back up except to trip over his own stuff, and in the situation where he could have fended people off till the next stop, the bike blocked a quick escape path.
Situational awareness? Without a doubt! This guy could have done numerous things to position himself better to avoid taking that much damage.
John Perkins recently wrost about self defense in a subway- I wish I still had the text. Anyway, one tactic he mentioned was the use of reinforced kicks- using walls, poles, etc to grab onto to deliver especially powerful kicks (in choy li fut, there are similar kicks called tiger tail kicks)- try these out for yourself, they can launch people.
As far as knives go, I would definitely pull mine out and attack any offending limbs in range (and if it continued, going for more serious targets). I have a few types of knives that would be very difficult to take away. One is this one:
http://www.thesportsauthority.com/sm-smith-and-wesson-badge-knife–pi-1256337.html
and another is this one:
http://www.botac.com/colsteelurpa.html
and another is this one:
http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-3419.html
One is a forward grip hawkblade with a ring for the index ring, one is a small push dagger, and the other is basically a karambit. Each of these is hard to take away. If one or more people grabbed the knife hand, it would allow a \”bridge\” to the opponent’s eyes. Aside from that, most knives make wrist releases easy. Even with a folder or conventional knife, I think you’d be safer using it instead of not using it because it might be used against you- if six guys really want to hurt you, they don’t need your knife- they’ve got twelve hands and twelve feet, and the intent. All you’ve got is your own limbs. Here’s something from Carl Cestari’s site, a well known close combat expert:
\”5. The myth that weapons can be taken away and used against you. A lot of so called ìexpertsî subscribe to this myth. The idea of opting not to use a weapon and going to hand to hand technique is insane. People who promote this type of behavior should stick to movie choreography and romance novels. The use of a knife is the prime target of this comment. I suppose if you were to spar with the knife or even threaten with the knife (See West side Story, the Musical) maybe it could be ìused against youî. But if you are angry, and down right pissed off, you grip that thing like you were strangling it to death and proceed to plunge it into your target over and over again. I don’t think there’s a ‘Grand Master’ out there that will take it away from you. And in a grappling situation, as we say in jersey, Fageddaboudit, a knife is your best buddy. By the time the skel realizes he’s being carved up like sushi, it’s too late. \”
This is from http://www.close-combat-video.com.
I believe this philosophy, and the sort of knives I described make it even more difficult to take away. Also, in a gang of six hoodlums who attack people, I’d immediately assume that at least one of them had a weapon- probably one worse than my easilly concealled knife- lead pipes, sticks, chains, stun guns, combat boots, socks full of coins, firearms, garrotes… Taking my weapon would probably be a downgrade.So I guess it was 12 against 1, and it looked an aweful lot like a race related crime. It was tough to tell but it did look like they picked him out because he looked like an easy target. I didn’t have the sound on so I couldn’t tell if he tried to defend himself or not.
If he had the bike between himself and the crowd he would have been better off. Also if he would have talked tough or brandished a knife it would have changed things too. I think that the group would probably still surround him, but then it would most likely be yelling and posturing.
Really it seemed like the guys best defense would have been to not go out on beat whitey night as was said earlier.
Ryan,
Why are you resorting to personal attacks? If doing the right thing means I am \”john wayne\” than so be it. The fact of the matter is the right thing is to at least speak up and tell these guys to stop. Yeah after watching the video the guy made alot of mistakes. Does that excuse what happened? Did he deserve what happened to him? Does it make it morally right for people to just watch and say \”sucks to be you?\” NO! Not only no, but HELL NO! Look its a difference of opinion. I was raised to do what is right, one way or the other. Whats to say if I am on that train with my family this crowd of retards doesnt attack me anyway? I just happen to be white, and if this was a racial related crime, then guess who the next target is. Talk about pre-contact cues!Now, what if that guy died and you sat there with your family and watched while he was beat-to-death in front of your kids and you did nothing. You want your child growing up with the memory of the guy he wated get brutally beaten to death? I want my child knowing that his dad stood up for what is right, that he wouldnt stand idlely by while some poor sap was beaten half to death because of his race.
People have a responsibility as citizens and just plain old human beings to get involved. That is the problem with things these days. Thats why kids do this stuff, because no one speaks up. No one says \”NO I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM\”. Everyone is content to go on with their happy little lives with blinders on, and say well it aint me. Problem is next time it might be you! Seems to me that a 12 on 1 situation is pretty much life and death. They could have beaten that guy to death with those numbers. He is lucky he was just beat up bad. What you fail to understand, Ryan, is what happens when a mob begins attacking things. Everyone wants to one up the guy who just hit him, so they just keep hitting him harder and harder.
Krav was created by israeli’s. Who learned a long time ago that to just accept things and think it was easier not to fight back got them into bad places that no one ever wanted to be. Now look at the mindset, ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, agressive, you hit me I will hit you back 3 times harder.
Situational awareness is all well and great, it has helped me avoid fights that I knew were boiling. Yes, my friend didnt practice good situational awareness, would i have done any better? I dont know. People can only do their best to avoid a situation. Its the times you least expect it when it happens to you. Ryan, neither you nor I could say we would recognize the \”pre-contact\” cues on the train, in big cities people yelling obscenities at you is common place.
After reading the article it seems that these punks beat this guy up because he didnt put his bike in the bike rack. Actually if you read it the guy DID try and diffuse the situation when they became angry at him he said (according to a witness) \”Hey there is room for everyone here.\”
I live my life by three simple rules: Treat others how you want them to treat you, Respect those that respect you, always do the right thing no matter the conseqeunces. This kind of ruleset may get me in trouble one day…but you know what, I live my life to be a good man. My faith in doing whats good and right will win out in the end every time. If this makes me John Wayne well then pilgrim, I reckon I will be ok in the long run.
Giddeyup Partner
First of all, you’re mighty sensitive. I hardly think that was much of a personal attack–you choose to be offended.
Regarding the rest of it, there’s no point in re-hashing it, and it’s interesting that you presume to know what I do or don’t understand. Regardless, my duty is to my family, and I’d rather my son go through life with me than without me. I’d rather explain to him later why I did what I did (or didn’t do), than have him watch me die or his mom raped and/or killed or have him killed because I didn’t consider them first.
I didn’t watch the video, but to intervene (or \”tell them to stop\”–are you serious?) would likely incite them to attack everyone on the train (including my family.)
Also, for your own training, do a bit of studying on de-escalation, with some good people (I’m not being facetious, I’m really sincere.) \”Hey there is room for everyone here\” is not de-escalation and will likely have the opposite effect of the one desired (and seemed to in this case also.)
what would have been an appropriate de-escalation strategy in this situation? Not being sarcastic, I really don’t know…
I went over to my neighbors house one time to save him from a home invader. This guy never cared about learning self defense, but I went over when he called for help. I posted the fight details before.
The Police where gonna arrest me for getting involved!! The attitude is that we should just call them and wait, not escalate the event by introducing more people into it.
I would do it again though…. 😉
I avoided arrest by pressing charges and makeing the story out that I went in to help and was then attacked too. I did not go in fighting.
Just a perspective.
Ok, finally watched the video. Here’s what I’d do. I’d take one of those kids, grab him by his nappy hair, and smash his face right into the wall of the bus. Or maybe not the wall…how about the guard rail? Or, the floor. The narrow edge of a seat? Well, whatever, I’d smash it into something. Hard. Kinda doubt those happy and gleeful kids would keep on screwing with me after one of their pals is laying on the ground with a caved-in face.
And, if it doesn’t work, at least I have the satisfaction of seriously messing up one of my attackers. Yes, that would definitely make feel better about getting my ass kicked by a bunch of kids.
Ryan,
Nice argument, however your family is in danger just being in the area. Your inaction can cause the same effect as taking action. Wasnt it you talking about \”pre-contact cues\”? This is a mighty big cue…gang of thugs attacking a guy right in front of you. Big cue says….me and my family could be next. YOU ARE IN DANGER FOR BEING THERE! Why? Your a witness, if the beating was racially motivated then you might be the wrong one, wrong place wrong time, any of these is a good reason for these thugs to jump you.Taking de-escalation classes? Personally between work, class, and gym I have hardly any time to do much else. Why are you a Krav student if you preach de-escalation? Krav is a military martial art. Yes, they tell you for legal reasons that you must try to avoid a fight, most people do that naturally.
People hate other people, their reason doesnt matter but one day that hate could turn on you. All your \”de-escalation\” tactics arent going to do you any good. What will? Your hands, your feet, your elbows, and knee’s. And any weapon you might have at hand.
This topic has gotten off course as it was a what would you do. I said what I would do and aparently you dont agree with me. Thats fine your entitled to your opinion my fellow military bretheren die for you to have that right on a daily basis. You have your opinion I have mine. Mine is formed on an analysis of wiolence history…..yours well..lets just say in a perfect world it would work great. You protect yours and your own and I will protect mine.
Till then we can just agree to disagree.
Your condescending tone is refreshing. 😉
I’ve been teaching KM for several years (and others before that), and I understand and appreciate it’s history and principles quite well. That said, avoiding a fight is one thing, but having good tactics to help you avoid it is quite another (there is also something to be said for appearing to be passive in order to lower the guard and raise the ego of the potential assailant.) Having the desire is not the same as knowing how, and there is nothing that says one has to adhere exclusively to one line of thought or follow only one doctrine. The best educations, in my opinion, are eclectic in nature.
BTW, my comments are based purely on empirical \”research\”. There’s no theory here. I’ve worked the door at some crappy places, I’ve taught at the trooper’s academy, I’ve taught ERT and shift tactical teams, ATF, etc., and at 5’7\” and under 150 pounds, I want to know what works and not what sounds good on paper. I’m a major proponent of self protection (note the term self and protection, not defense.)
Anyway, it’s been fun. 😈
My penis is bigger than yours!!!!
Nuh-uh!
Uh-hu!
Nuh-uh!
Uh-hu!
Damn shame that even the good threads are derailed into crap like this.
Actually, I think it’s a pretty good debate. I really don’t see that it has deteriorated into anything but just that. Maybe a few jabs here and there, but the crux of the posts are solid (I think). 😕 I rarely post anything that relates to my background (I assume that’s what Siayn takes umbrage at here), but sometimes it’s necessary in the context of a discussion. I typically don’t do it because there is really no way to do it without sounding pretentious, but otherwise you don’t know if I’m a 13 year old kid who’s never seen violence outside of a junior high locker room.
Ron, let’s look at it a different way. Would you advocate that your wife (I don’t know if you’re married or not, but just play along) intervene? When replying to what ifs, I try to relate to the masses. Systems/styles/tactics need to work for them. A great self protection system needs to work for my mom, not just for Bas Rutten. Does this make sense?
Ahh now we branch out. And here we may finally find a meeting point. I would not advocate that my wife intervene in this situation unless she has had the proper training to handle herself as we (martial artists/gun fanatics) have.
To be straight and honest about it…No I would not feel comfortable letting my wife get involved in the situation. I know I know…your reply will be that if I initiate into this situation then I am involving her anyway. And your right to an extent. You do have a point, I never debated that. In an effort for you to see where I am coming from though…
Since we are branching out to hypothetical situations lets pretend that the person attacked on the train was a woman instead of a man would you have intervened? Or even more of a digression off topic, if you were walking by an alley with your wife and kid and saw a woman being gang raped by 12 guys would you intervene?
The real point is…regardless of gender allowing this kind of violence to occur without even speaking up or doing something about it is not what any human being should do. Those people who sat around and watched this incident (which there were a few, probably not 12 but probably enough to deter/stop the violence) without incident, like it was a common occurance.
Here is my 2 cents.
If it were a women, no questions asked, jumping in is the only option.
Now it seems like this guy did what everyone is talking about, he tried to reason with these kids. He had no choice but to bring his bike on board. It reads to me that it was a chic that caused the fight. In that sense, the leader was a girl, do you take her out first. How many fights have you seen that are started by a women, a lot I’m sure.
This is why I train, this is why I joined KM, to fight back. This poor guy had no one to turn to and had no training. He needed at the very least to make sure one of them wasn’t getting off the train, unless it was with him.
Man not seriously injured
Relevant but missing from the all the use a weapon/get involved discussion is this key piece of information:
The man who had come under attack was left injured, but not seriously.
Plus, those were kids, not hardened thugs. 6 on 1 can be a little deceiving as a term. In this case it was six kids. Kids can be dangerous too, but it definitely affects your odds.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
