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Despite what I’ve said here, it’s very likely that I would have interevened. Now, this is not a capitulation–I believe my arguments were tactically sound (and depending on the circumstances, I hope I’d adhere to them), but they were really rooted in a bit of devil’s advocate. I think it is important to consider the context of a situation before giving knee-jerk responses.
Oh, and the \”these were just kids\” argument is BS. Have you been to a high school lately? Do you have any idea how big and angry \”kids\” are today? Do you know what groups are committing the most egregious of crimes? I’m in a pretty small city, but as a member of the county’s juvenile crime prevention council, I’m here to tell you, \”kids\” are dangerous.
Ryan,
No you are right your arguments are sound and your points are valid. Despite any minor flaming back and forth between you and I it was still fun. I as well enjoy playing devils advocate…and enjoy a good discussion. I do agree with you on the kids. Kids are more dangerous today than they were 10 years ago. One word…Columbine…I don’t want to take this too off topic so a short answer will suffice. Ryan, you’ve mentioned de-escalation and you also said that this guy’s response of \”there’s room for everyone\” wasn’t a good statement for de-escalation. As I’ve gotten older my skin’s become thicker so I’ve been able to shrug off stupid comments from people looking for a fight, but I could see myself saying something similar to what this guy said, what would’ve been a better response? Something like: \”sorry, I’ll move.\”
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Kids (and mostly everyone else) are more likely to fold if you turn up the aggression first.
Prime example: http://www.abrutis.com/ihatekthehotlinker/bagarre.wmv
If you had a knife in this situation, would you be apprehensive to use it since they are kids? I would definately think that the legal implications would be more severe if you were to use a knife against some minors. Hence, I would be pretty apprehensive.
Of course like the saying goes, \”It’s better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.\”
Link is blocked from outside hotlinking (ie, what you did here on the message board). I went to the Abrutis website but it is all in french so I couldn’t find it. Would you mind posting where it is on the abrutis site so I can navigate to it and watch?
Thanks
Regarding de-escalation, it’s something I think that is greatly misunderstood.
Take the classic, \”Why are you looking at my girl?\” Now, most would think to respond (if looking to avoid confrontation) with something like, \”I wasn’t looking at her.\” Now, let’s consider the mental state (whether it’s ego-driven, chemically enhanced, both…) of someone who approaches strangers with an attitude like this. Now, let’s look at what the response was–\”I wasn’t looking at her.\” Guess what? You’ve just called him a liar (in his mind at least.) This will likely not de-escalate the situation–don’t challenge them. Another way to respond could be, \”Oh man, I didn’t realize she was with you. You’re a lucky guy. I didn’t mean to offend anyone.\” How about, \”Dude, I’m going through a nasty divorce with my wife, and I was just staring off into space. I didn’t really realize it. I’m sorry.\” Maybe even offer to buy a drink.
I know, you guys are thinking, what the F%$k! Look, I don’t have anything to prove, and if me appearing to be passive or buying some dude a drink keeps me from busting heads (or getting mine busted) and avoiding potential legal troubles, I’m all for it. Also, if the de-escalation fails, then at the least I’ve lowered his guard and raised his ego. He thinks he’s got a wimp on his hands, and his posturing will allow me to go pre-emptive (if needed) with minimal resistance. Remember, the punch that knocks you out is the one you don’t see coming.
BTW, I’m no sage, and I don’t pretend to have all the answers. This is just information I’ve garnered from personal experience and from studying many different \”experts\” in their respective fields.
Regarding the knife and the kids, I don’t discriminate. If my life is on the line, whether it’s a 15 year-old punk with a pipe or a 60 year-old woman with a .45, my mission is to go home safe. Legally, I don’t think there’s much distinction, though a jury may see differently (we all know that juries don’t always abide by what’s legally prudent.) Be ready to articulate why you did what you did. You’ll likely be judged by a standard that says, \”were your actions objectively reasonable?\” Would a \”reasonable\” person in the same situation have done something similar? I’m no lawyer, and this may vary by state, so check your own laws.
GV, I didn’t look at the link, but in a one-on-one situation, I’d agree with you. However, in a group, \”kids\” are more likely to up the ante so as not to \”lose face\” among their peers.
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quote \”Siayn\:Link is blocked from outside hotlinking (ie, what you did here on the message board). I went to the Abrutis website but it is all in french so I couldn’t find it. Would you mind posting where it is on the abrutis site so I can navigate to it and watch?Thanks
Well, that’s weird that linkie no workie…it’s still working for me. Anyways, try googling ‘Mike Vallely’ with ‘fight’, and look for where he fights four guys.
Ryan, I’m gonna have to disagree with you. You take one of them kids down hard, the rest WILL back off.
Oh, thats one of my favorites. I love watching the fight because you can tell he has identified the \”alpha-thug\”, and you can see the levels of which the other three kids are committed to fighting. One is flat out scared, the other two are watching the alpha-thug out of the corner of their eye for cues.
Its a great one for fight behavior analysis.
If you were like me and couldn’t see the Abrutis link, try it here on putfile http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Mike-Valley-beats-up-4-jocks
GV, there’s definitely something to be said for your tactic, and I’ve used it and seen it used. Again, the context is important, and every situation will dictate what response is needed.
Regarding the Mike V. fight (which I now remember), the guys got what was coming to them, but it was purely driven by ego. This was an easy one to walk away from, though he probably didn’t want to lose face in front of bystanders/friends/etc. So, the dynamic remains, and it went well for him, but it could have gone very bad. Tactically, he took off his shirt–this is a great time to attack someone. Also, notice the guy in white (2nd from the left). His hand is in his pocket the whole time. When Mike engages, no real physical damage is being done (though he does hit the guy in white with a nice shot), and those not in the midst of the fight have the opportunity to access weapons, improvised or otherwise. At the end, he is tied up for a second or two, which is another great opportunity for someone to blindside him (maybe someone not even in the original group.)
Now, I’m not criticizing, only analyzing. Obviously it worked out quite well for him. His aggressiveness probably ruled the day for him, but there are a lot of things here to consider (on multiple fronts), and I think analyzing all sides will serve everyone.
Ryan, every situation is different, and has it’s own advantages and disadvantages, like everything else in life. I agree, he opened himself up when he was taking off his shirt. On the other hand, this was an intimidation tactic, and intimidation as well as overwhelming aggresiveness did the trick for him.
Really, regarding this fight as well as the attack on the train, these were disorganized, on the fly attacks. A planned attack like a robbery would be alot harder to defend against.
His aggressiveness was great, but what probably \”did it\” was his half-ass \”opponents\”, who didn’t really want to fight. 😉
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