- This topic has 34 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Kirsten:No disrespect taken but I think that’s what he said. It also sounds like you are contradicting yourself so further explanation may be needed to clarify your post because you say the offenders have the knife in the rear hand, and then go on to say that it should be held in the lead hand so I am confused. As a LE trainer and husband to a cop, he is acutely aware of this issue and has studied it in length with the Department of Corrections.As for training with a skilled knife fighter, he actually has and Felix Valencia asked Oneness to be his instructor after traveling to our training center to meet Oneness… My guess is he is discussing stance and not knife training in his post. He also trained with Paul Vunak when he was in Oregon.
BTW, John Whitman has a story about some great knife fighters coming to KM to show how our knife defenses were not going to work. Then they got the guys flustered and pissed off and low-and-behold all that fancy knife work went out the window and they starting swinging like a 6 year old on the playground. Itís a great story if you get a chance to hear it.
So basically I think he is just saying keep your stance squareÖLOL
If you reread the post you’ll notice two different situations. I’m saying that weapon back is tactic against an unarmed opponent in an ambush situations, but is not perfered in a weapon on weapon situation. It allows a prisoner to get close to the intended taget and never see the weapon. He’s usually moving through a crowd and stalking his unarmed, unaware victim.
If I have a stick or a knife why would I want to negate the reach of the weapon? May make sense to you, but not to me
funny you should name drop Felix. He was one of the first guys to teach me the folly of knife fighting with the knife in the back hand. I think it was the first lesson. Your saying Felix asked Oneness to be his instructor in Knife/stick fighting? I know Felix pretty well. Can’t really imagine that scenario. Or in krav? Pretty sure he knows Darren. Of course he teaches regularly about a block away from KMSO as well as HOC.
Vunak would have taught him knife forward as its a JKD foundation also I doubt the stance would’ve been square as the Phlips tend to like to keep the heart away from the opponents weapon. Its because even sticks represent a blade. But don’t really have an issue with his stance on being square, though i’m not sure I would do it. Everybody stands a bit differently and I understand he’s coming from a krav/boxing structure
Oneness said you didn’t need to bring the knife forward. I disagree in a weapon on weapon defense and would still keep it forward against empty hand and take what is given. Lot of blood tends to dishearten.
Not into fancy knife self myself and Felix’s empty hand defensive stuff can be a bit flashy but not when it comes to knife or stick fighting itself. Pretty much learn by doing and straight forward.
Can’t comment on John’s stories. Wasn’t there. Anything involving a knife sucks, especialy unarmed. I don’t care what system you train in or promote
Sean has an excellent FMA base. I just know alot of the players
Hope that clarifiesRe: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Oneness:As far as my background… I’m not the type of person that will talk about a subject that I don’t know about. If I don’t know, I won’t make **** up I’ll go find the right person to answer it.Maybe, I should have clarified more. I was taking about Mark’s reason to have the dominate hand forward because of the smaller MMA gloves and padding? So if he had boxing gloves on he would have a different stance? It just didn’t make sense. But that is not what we are discussing here.
I don’t care what hand you have forward, just that your stance should be square. I also meant exactly what you said about the prison shankings. Grab’em pull them in and strike. Don’t need to switch my stance for that.
I also was trying to let beginners know that you should keep the same stance for what ever weapon you use. I shouldn’t have a different stance for striking, then one for a knife and then another if I have a gun.
I do think you need to switch your stance every once in a while for training because you never know. But to switch for each weapon or glove is not the best.
I’m mostly speaking to the beginners on this forum. Some of you can confuse the hell out of them.
Wasn’t really asking about your background. Hope it didn’t come off as asking for a resume. wasn’t my intention. Wasn’t accusing you of making **** up. Thought my post was pretty clear and not something any level would have a problem understanding. Simply advocated weapon side forward in weapon vs weapon confrontation. If you disagree. Cool. Even my buddy CLFMak isn’t agreeing
Not sure how I feel about Marks rationale, though I find it food for thought. I also took it as he was recommending it as a better structure for anything other than puffy boxing gloves and rules. Understandable as you say he has a JKD base. Equally understandable why you would recommend a square stance being thats your base
Your comment on keeping the same stance for all is exactly the rationale a JKD fighter would give to keep the empty hand and weapon structure the same. Strong side forward. As well as that keeping your power forward for extended reach and straight blast to end quickly.. Street being usually not a place to soften a guy up with jabs. Its an interesting discussion and one I truthfully probably would’ve adapted if I’d learned about it when I was younger. Why learn one side for empty hand and another for weapons. We agree on the concept but not on the application
Understand that your structure advocates a square stance and why you suggest it.
The only thing we really disagree on is I think its not the best use of a weapon to negate the reach of the weapon by putting it back in your stances and to put your vitals in closer range to your opponent.
Why assume that its mostly beginners on the forum or that they aren’t smart enough to ask for clarification? Its discussions like this that create the greatest aha moments and some of the best threads, Most systems train to fight that system. They don’t look at the rationale behind other systems. Its a failure. I’ll risk confusing the hell out of someone if it means we can learn something.
Sorry if you took my post as an attack. Everybody has different POV’s and expiriences. My expirience w/ knife sparring or stick fighting taught me to keep the weapon forward and that it was vital to do so. YMMV. Of course thats what makes the world and forum an interesting place
Anyway glad to see you and Kirsten posting. I look forwad to getting to know you and good discussion
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
Hatmaker: MMA gloves are lighter and thus your potential to damage with them is more, hence he recommends strong side forward because you don’t need the added distance to get KO power in the strong hand. With boxing gloves you do. After all, how many guys do you see KO’d with a jab in a boxing match? A few I suspect, but not many. Hatmaker comes at this from a sport background, not a self-defense one.
Knife in front hand vs. rear hand: I’ve trained with Tom Sotis of AMOK, and consider him to be the best knife guy in the country, and one of the best in the world. We train mostly with the knife in the front hand, not the rear. Knife in the rear hand was predominantly a military tactic from WWI and WWI. I can see a reason to do it when facing someone unarmed, but not against an armed opponent. There is no reason to negate your reach.
JM2C.
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Oneness:Hatmaker’s influence from JKD is why he says that. I don’t agree, but what ever works for you.The best is to keep you body square, with whatever stance you choose. With your dominate side slightly back, if you want. Also, just because you enter a knife, doesn’t mean you need to switch your stance and bring it forward. Just remember your not sparring when a knife is entered.
Your shoulders should be square and not bladed with your stance. If it’s bladed, you are more open to either being taken down or kicked in the back of the leg.
Oneness/Kristen
I reread this post this morning. As I understood the promotion of the square krav stance, I wasn’t taking into consideration what it actually did to the hands. CLFMak is a chinese Stylist, The guy he talked about JKD and me a bunch of stuff I can’t do any more. I move like a Thai bag…just enough to get hit againrofl2Doubt me ask Sean. I was looking at it from that POV. So I played with this stance with both knife and stick trying to find common ground and areas where I misinterputed you. Its the net after all and I’m frequently wrong;):
I am talking from a weapon vs weapon perspective or If i have the weapon and We’re going to have to agree to disagree. I would be more bladed, knife strong side forward and would take a kick to the back of the leg for a couple of good cuts. Even better if he gives the leg to play with. Don’t know about a guy attempting a take down against a lead knife.Might be an even better thing. I guess I subscribe to the FMA/JKD methodology on this. Give as little of target as possible. But as you so eloquently state To Each His Own
But I do better understand your POV and respect your opinion. Hope no hard feelings
mike
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
Hey I like discussions as well as anyone else as well as the differences of opinions.
The questions was from somone with limited experience and about stance. So I was answered that. Not trying to offend those of you with more experience, but with your training and backgrounds you should be able to make a viable decision.
Ask Felix, he will tell you. But basically he asked me to train with him and be his rep to teach LAMECO in Oregon. unfortunately, I was building the Bas Rutten MMA System Instructor’s manual and helping with Licensee stuff and did not want to add more things to my plate.
At that moment, I wanted to learn more MMA and Submissions not more knife and stick, so I turned Felix down. He uses my facility anytime he comes to Eugene and knows it is always open for him.
If I wanted to learn more knife and stick, I would train with him, he is a great instructor and very nice guy. Since he has never been defeated at Dog Brothers competition, I would consider him to be a good choice. Its been some time, so I don’t know if he is still undefeated.
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
I would never “name drop” for purposes of being an arse. I only did it to let you know Oneness has trained with those guys and he wasn’t talking out his backside… It has more of an effect when you say the actual persons name instead of “yeah he trained with people that are considered experts” and then not get specific with the “who”. And for those of you that know us personally, we would never make stuff like that up. We don’t just state what our credentials are and hope nobody checks on them. Or make them so vague that you can’t check on them. I have been training for more than 1/2 my life and you are bound (as you and Sean know) to meet just about everyone in the MA community. Please, feel free to ask Felix about Oneness and make sure you ask him what he thought about his round kicks too… Felix was very funny about that…(inside joke) 🙂
Never any hard feelings! It’s always great to have a debate over techiques. It makes us all think about what we are doing and more importantly why and if we should be doing it that way!
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Oneness:Hey I like discussions as well as anyone else as well as the differences of opinions.The questions was from somone with limited experience and about stance. So I was answered that. Not trying to offend those of you with more experience, but with your training and backgrounds you should be able to make a viable decision.
Ask Felix, he will tell you. But basically he asked me to train with him and be his rep to teach LAMECO in Oregon. unfortunately, I was building the Bas Rutten MMA System Instructor’s manual and helping with Licensee stuff and did not want to add more things to my plate.
At that moment, I wanted to learn more MMA and Submissions not more knife and stick, so I turned Felix down. He uses my facility anytime he comes to Eugene and knows it is always open for him.
If I wanted to learn more knife and stick, I would train with him, he is a great instructor and very nice guy. Since he has never been defeated at Dog Brothers competition, I would consider him to be a good choice. Its been some time, so I don’t know if he is still undefeated.
Yeah figured that was the case. I trained with him about a month ago. Missed him last week. Like him alot. I don’t see him for a long time but you always feel like family with him.
FWIW the undeafeated thing is an area of contention with the DB’er’s as in their credo there are no winners or losers, no scoring or referees. Felix hasn’t done a gathering in a while.
If you look into stick/knife stuff Michael recommended Tom Sotis in an earlier post. Always heard great stuff about him and practicality. Also Marc denny and Gabe Suarez have 2 dvd’s out Die Less Often and DLO2. Their about the interface between gun, knife and empty hand. There are previews on the dog brothers site. Excellent material. You might be interested as I noticed Kristen has talked about weapons
Good to meet you and good luck with you training:beer:
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Kirsten:I would never “name drop” for purposes of being an arse. I only did it to let you know Oneness has trained with those guys and he wasn’t talking out his backside… It has more of an effect when you say the actual persons name instead of “yeah he trained with people that are considered experts” and then not get specific with the “who”. And for those of you that know us personally, we would never make stuff like that up. We don’t just state what our credentials are and hope nobody checks on them. Or make them so vague that you can’t check on them. I have been training for more than 1/2 my life and you are bound (as you and Sean know) to meet just about everyone in the MA community. Please, feel free to ask Felix about Oneness and make sure you ask him what he thought about his round kicks too… Felix was very funny about that…(inside joke) 🙂Never any hard feelings! It’s always great to have a debate over techiques. It makes us all think about what we are doing and more importantly why and if we should be doing it that way!
First I’m sorry as I think I’ve been misspelling your namebow1 just realized it. Truthfully I was teasing you with the name dropping line as well as the rest of the instructor thing. I’ve known Felix a long time and knew that you meant as a rep to Valencia Lameco. The way you phrased it was Felix asked Oneness to be his instructor. I found that fun after the bar closed last night:beer:
Didn’t think you were being an ass just sticking up for a friend.
Strong side forward is a heavily debated subject. It becomes less so when you think of stick or knife fighting as a shorter version of fencing. :abx:A fencer would never shorten his reach by putting his epee in his back hand plus his heart is the closet thing to his opponent in a left lead stance. Not good in a real fight. Nor do you see them square their shoulders forward creating a bigger target, they blade to the side to offer less a target. So much of Lee’s JKd was influenced by fencing and so much of Guro Dan’s interputation was influenced by FMA. How that tranlates to krav I’m not sure as I don’t take krav. Though my suggestion to play spar the scenario’s out was legitamate in both styles,but pay attention to what are vitals. Too many seem to just play knife tag.
On the other hand how many knife duals are you going to get into. Thats why i think a system like krav is great because most times your in a fight before you even realize your in it
Though thanks to Sean I don’t take kenpo and eskrima because he’s got me wanting to do krav. Till that happens I get to annoy people on the forum. The cool thing about forums is you get to meet really knowlegable people. I’ve learned so much here and from guys like Michael who just showed up here but has been a huge resource of info the last 4 or 5 years and friend. Debate or good discussion is important because people get so caught up in the dogma of their systems that they miss the obvious. when its on line i can always go back to it later and maybe catch things I was too stubborn to look at later
Nice meeting you
mike
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
One last thing. Sorry if I rambled a bit in the last few posts. Before I started posting this morning, I went to the store. As i was driving home a kid about 3 years old came darting out from between the cars on a busy street that leads to a freeway on ramp. I missed him but not by much, maybe 2 feet or less. Then watchedas he ran around the street as oncoming traffic was coming the other direction. I couldn’t get outta the seatbelt fast enough or the car stopped. Luckily there was a woman on the other side of the street who grabbed him
We found the mother in her apartment who didn’t know the kid was gone and the gardners were working on the apt so the gate was unlocked. That kid was gone like a sprinter. The woman who caught the kid reamed the mother out in a way that would have made a drill instructor blush. I’ve been shaking and crying on and off since and posting gave me something to do. I can’t imagine dealing with that kind of loss and feel very fortunate. He’s so frikken cute and full of life
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
Geeze, I don’t blame you. The woman was generous as I would have wanted to throttle her. From the moment they begin walking with you, children need to be shown a healthy respect for the street and rules of the road. Sounds like mom was not around and did not notice the child was even gone. A second is all it takes and you will never get that moment back. If I looked at the street I think my butt would have burst into flames from the mere thought of the spanking headed my way, as we lived on a very busy highway…
Unfortunately a paramedic can tell you parents do more damage by merely backing out of the driveway and not realizing their toddlers are there… If you have little one’s, please don’t forget to tell them the driveway can be dangerous too, please.
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
Is there anything we missed in this thread? Hmmm.. stance, equipment, weapons, who to train with, were to train and why some parents need an IQ test prior to preganancy… Nope, think we covered it all!
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
quote Kirsten:Is there anything we missed in this thread? Hmmm.. stance, equipment, weapons, who to train with, were to train and why some parents need an IQ test prior to preganancy… Nope, think we covered it all!Thats why I’m single…I couldn’t pass the IQ test:beer:
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
I didn’t expect to get all of this great info! Thanks to all who replied. Bookmarked.
Re: Bas MMA Workout for Southpaws?
Great discussion and comments made by all. Certainly has been a great read and although it went a little off topic the information is still extremely good for everyone.
I’ve had the opportunity a few times to be o the matt with Oneness and I can share that not only is it my opinion but that of many of my close instructor friends he is a top rate instructor. Theres a reason why he is the head of the Bas system as the man behind the scenes.
And as far as Kirsten is concerned although never having trained with her I can say that we have had several conversations and I feel she truly gets it.
Combined with the fact that Jon Pascal someone whose opinion I sincerely trust speaks very highly of her as an LE/Force instructor. That’s enough for me as far as her credentials.
Coincidently I actually met Mike (unstop) while I was teaching an Escrima class. So he has seen my methodology in that respect.
Strong side forward is my preference however with this disclaimer, when I teach Karambit its nature is to be deployed in reverse grip so its strong side back and used as a defensive weapon.
We have actually been playing with it incorporated into our KM knife defenses. 360 block then deploy as simultaneous response. So it’s like a hybrid of KM and Kenpo knife and Doce Pares with the principles applied to keep it honest.
Jarret W. Kevin L. everyone’s hooked on it now as a daily carry. 🙂
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
