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Well, where were you? You missed all of the fun. 8)
So, we used Karate belts to try this (maybe not the most realistic way to be choked, but the safest to try this). Of course, could happen that someone might try to choke you with a belt or something.
Now, regarding a wire, John pointed out that it is pretty much impossible to defend against it, if it’s already around your neck. Even if you tried to turn in, it would likely cut deep into your neck and even if you got off a couple of counters, the damage already caused might be too great and you would likely die.
That leaves being choked with a rope or other not quite as sharp object. Basically, the defense would be similar to two different KM techniques. Hair grab from behind and choke with a pull from behind. As soon as you feel the rope, your hands fly back (as in choke defense) and you try to pluck close to the back of your neck, where the rope crosses, hoping to catch both or at least one of the ropes (this will work for the rope being uncrossed as well, but we tried it with the rope crossed, which makes it harder on the defender). Then you spin inwards, still pulling on the rope where you made the pluck, and give counters, knees, groin shots, elbows, maybe eye gouges, throat strikes, whatever works.
If the attacker’s knee is in your back, this same defense will work. Also, if he pushes against the back of your leg.
The person attacking me choked pretty strongly and I noticed that the stronger the choke, the harder it became catching at least one of the ropes. Most of the time, I ended up catching one part of the rope, but not the other (I assume I probably got the one on top). Even catching only one part of the rope, the defense worked fine, as it relieved enough pressure for me to turn and counter.
A few times, I missed both ends of the rope. In that case, I could still spin, but the pressure was still great on my neck and throat. However, I could give counters now and also pull down on the rope from the front and so I was at least left in a better position.
So, overall I thought this defense worked well. Next, one would have to try it with an actual rope, which would make it harder, but I believe it could still work well. If you can’t pluck at the rope, you could at least still spin in, pull down the rope with your left arm and counter with your right, hoping to hurt him until he loosens his grip.
Oh, and one thing that was emphasized was bursting in, because it would make it harder on the assailant to tighten the rope.
Anyway, this was fun to work on. Next week sentry removal? 🙂
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GiantkillerI always spin. It is easier and not expected by the assailant. The pluck has to be too perfect. Aside from that under stress I don’t see it happening if the person is that much bigger than the victim. So spinning is, IMO the best defense.
I think the success of the pluck does not depend so much on the size of the opponent but more on the size of the rope as well as how hard he is pulling. The tighter (and smaller) the rope, the harder is seems to be to catch. But there is nothing lost trying, if you can catch at least one of the two crossed ends of the rope, it can relieve a good amount of pressure. If you can’t catch either one, spinning still works, but the pressure is still on, so your counters better be good. You could also try to pull down on the rope from the front in that case, then continue with counters.
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GiantkillerReally? Didn’t used to be, I think. Not sure, though. Anyway, it’s some pretty cool stuff.
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GiantkillerPsyops,
Yes, spin. But you might as well add the pluck because one’s hands are going to go there anyway. The pluck doesn’t delay or inhibit the turn at all.
I found that the pluck helped a lot, when I was able to catch at least one part of the belt. When I didn’t, there was still the same amount of pressure right after the turn, which would be worse if I was being choked with an even thinner object, such as a rope. Of course, counters would still be possible from there, but it’s good being able to relieve that pressure.
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GiantkillerSo that I’m clear: You were pluckng \”behind\” your head, at the hands, as opposed to making space in front (on your throat) ???
😕 Hmmmmm ….
I’ll have to try this, but I just don’t get it.
If you can keep the object (rope, belt wire) off your throat in the first place by getting a hand in between it and your throat, then spin and fight, I don’t know why you’d want to pluck. To me it adds time, is less instinctive and is too likely to fail because you don’t know where their hands are …
We used a jump rope when we tried it. The easiest thing to do Jeff is just grab a friend and walk it through slowly.
I couldnít make space without clawing at my throat but when doing a behind the head pluck it seemed to work every time. ñHowever.. I was a lot bigger and stronger then my partner who didnít have as easy a time so they did two hand to one side first hand grabs rope right behind the ear then second hand follows in same space at which point there is now two hands on the rope and you tuck head and spin in that direction. You should be able to pull the rope over the top of your head and while still holding it and spinning into him shoulder bump then step back (which pulls him forward) and do a groin kick.
Did that make sense?
I donít claim to have all the answers especially where KM is concerned but I do really enjoy figuring out puzzles. This way seems like it would adhere to the principles as close as possible. The smallest person should be able to do it and it is using techniques we are already comfortable with.
Maybe I can get Jarret to shoot video of it this week.
Hey, when did YOU get to try it?
KJ, you don’t pluck at the hands, but you are trying to catch the ropes. More specifically, you are trying to get your fingers into the small space behind your neck where the rope is crossed, then pull to the side. If it’s crossed really tightly, this is hard to do however. Of course, if you saw it very early, you might be able to block the rope with your hands, but if he’s coming from behind, you may not be fast enough to react.
So, Sean, you did more of a headlock pluck on one side? I’ve thought about this, but I’m wondering if you would somehow need to know which one of the ropes is above the other, so that you can then pull out your head? I’m not sure if there is a way to sense this, but it would be hard. If you pluck on only one side of the rope, does it relieve pressure? Something else to try… 🙂
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GiantkillerJust saw a youtube video of Jarret doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd7npft6xmk&NR=1
Looks like he uses the headlock defense rather than the choke from behind defense, with both arms plucking on the side he is turning to. I haven’t been able to try this, but are both options – the choke from behind and the headlock defense – acceptable? What are the pros and cons to each, or could they work equally well?
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GiantkillerRe: Being choked with a wire (both with and without space)
OK … Haven’t been around for awhile – Hope everyone is well!
I just watched the vid, and that defense looks great – I wonder though (and will have to try) how it would work if; the attacker crosses their hands first, loops the cord (rope, wire, etc) around your neck, then tightens, a la Godfather … Hold your fists together like they’re punching each other, then pull apart – Seems as though the attacker would have much more leverage, though it likely wouldn’t change the defense …
Interesting …
Re: Being choked with a wire (both with and without space)
Thats actually me in the video and I did everywhich way I could and he still got out. I crossed them and even put my knee in his back once. Its a solid defense.
Re: Being choked with a wire (both with and without space)
Awesome. Do you think that someone who has learned basic choke defenses but not practiced handling this particular threat would instinctively do the right thing? When you have that burst of adrenaline and your amygdala senses something around the neck, would your brain really differentiate between a wire and a pair of hands?
Re: Being choked with a wire (both with and without space)
quote CJs Dad:Thats actually me in the video and I did everywhich way I could and he still got out. I crossed them and even put my knee in his back once. Its a solid defense.Nice – Thanks for the clarification … Also nice to finally put a face to the name (kind of 😉 ) Hope you’re well Sean.
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