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Good trained people vs Evil
I am reading this forum and I have to ask, what are the statistics of professionally trained fighters that become cop killers? And I agree ñ you can take the gun, drop the clip and use it to bash him in the face. With still one bullet in the chamber if deadly force is needed, if he had the brains to load it correctly in the first place. (This is all in theory and plays well in my movie-brain, I would have to practice this)
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quote \”jburtonpdx\:quote :Or maybe you are confronted by a violent person, whom you know, you take the gun to scare him off, but can’t bring yourself to shoot at him and suddenly he grabs it.Carefull with this one, I know the training I recieved would say you dont use a gun to scare somebody, you only use the firearm when deadly force is justified.
Absolutely – If someone breaks down my door in the middle of the night, I’ve got plenty of love to share – Trust me, with a wife and kids to protect, it wouldn’t take much to pull the trigger in my own home – Especially if they themselves were armed.
That being said, I don’t want to shoot – No decent person wants to kill another human being; I would not use deadly force immediately. You’re trained to forcefully issue commands, to try to control the situation. But if (for example) I hear a window break, I see someone coming through it, I call the police and keep them on the phone (as we’re trained to do), I order the BG to the floor and he presents a weapon, says he’s here to kill me, rape my wife and take my kids (whatever) or comes at me, I assume he’s there to do me and my family harm. If he doesn’t hit the floor or dive out that window, I don’t believe I’d be hesitant to fire.
Now, the other scenario (false alarm a few days earlier, go to check out the noise) is certainly possible. However, I’d like to believe that I’d rely on my training just like I do with Krav, and get it right everythime.
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[quote=\”kravjeff\”Absolutely – If someone breaks down my door in the middle of the night, I’ve got plenty of love to share – Trust me, with a wife and kids to protect, it wouldn’t take much to pull the trigger in my own home – Especially if they themselves were armed. [/quote]
I agree, if someone came into my house in the middle of the night – I would have no issue shooting them and making sure they were dead before calling the police. I have my children and myself to protect and I will not take any chances. It is easier to deal with the legal side of things when there is only one story anyway.
Re: Good trained people vs Evil
quote \”calicogirl\:I am reading this forum and I have to ask, what are the statistics of professionally trained fighters that become cop killers? And I agree ñ you can take the gun, drop the clip and use it to bash him in the face. With still one bullet in the chamber if deadly force is needed, if he had the brains to load it correctly in the first place. (This is all in theory and plays well in my movie-brain, I would have to practice this)Calicogirl – One important thing you bring up is \”if he had the brains to load it right in the first place.\” I’ve been taught in my KM gun defnense training to assume that the firearm will not work – Not to rely on being able to shoot. Police have confiscated weapons loaded improperly, loaded with the incorrect caliber rounds, and not loaded at all.
I have no idea how many \”trained fighters become cop killers\” but I’d offer you this: Out of 256,285,373 (2006 census) people over 14 in this country how many are even trained fighters? Not many … This goes back to one of my earlier points: About 5 – 7% of all legal gun owners (of which there are approximately 80,000,000) are licensed to carry a handgun (about 400,000). Of those, The number of people convicted of utilizing their handgun in the commission of a crime is astronimically low. Now, how many of those 400,000 licensed citizens, train in Krav Maga? No way to know that number but I’d bet that it is very, very low as well. I would argue that teaching weapons retention techniques (the original point) to this small group of responsible people would in no way unduly put police officers at risk.
KJ
P.S. Welcome to the Forum!
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quote \”calicogirl\:I agree, if someone came into my house in the middle of the night – I would have no issue shooting them and making sure they were dead before calling the police. I have my children and myself to protect and I will not take any chances. It is easier to deal with the legal side of things when there is only one story anyway.Still, you have to be careful, especially depending on the laws in the state in which you live – Training that I received dictates that if possible to do so safely, you should call the police before the confrontation. If you keep the line open the entire incident will be recorded (all 911 calls are) and if you do everything \”right\” (e.g., issue commands, etc …) that will go in your favor should you be charged with assault / murder.
Interesting and Funny (OK morbidly funny) Statistic:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
Yes, that is 80 million.(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, \”Guns don’t kill people, doctors do.\”quote :Wow, right away I’m wondering, how would you defend against a pair of those? Are they usually swung at the same time, or one after the other? If they both come at the same time, maybe block with both arms, give a simultaneous groin kick, then run? If it’s one strike after the other, maybe you could block the knife/sword that is coming toward you and just go for a big counter and make distance. Either way it would be hard.They are usually utilized using one to defend/clear while the other defends. Classical attacks include cutting in all 8 planes, thrusting, chopping, and occasionally attacking with both, usually both in a horizontal direction attacking high and middle lines rather than a committed double downward chop. Various defenses include hard blocks with the edge (targeting limbs), high and low X blocks, and parries. Some styles also teach the use of the sword in a sort of reverse grip where it is flipped at the prong so the blade rests against the forearm, allowing for blade reinforced inward defenses and elbow strikes or straight strikes with the pommel (very similar to the sai). These are all classical applications, but the design also lends itself to other mayhem- The guard and pommel can be used for powerful punching or hammerfists in close, the prongs can be used to gouge, and the spine can be used to strike utilizing what’s called a wrap strike, where the hard spine is used to attack areas like the face to wound to degree. This is a move used in old saber fencing when you didn’t necessarily want to decapitate your opponent (and it flows right from certain parries very well).
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quote \”kravjeff\:Still, you have to be careful, especially depending on the laws in the state in which you live – Training that I received dictates that if possible to do so safely, you should call the police before the confrontation. If you keep the line open the entire incident will be recorded (all 911 calls are) and if you do everything \”right\” (e.g., issue commands, etc …) that will go in your favor should you be charged with assault / murder.\”Excuse me sir, I’m about to kill you. However I need you to stand still while I call 911 to make sure I have every point covered.\” LOL – sorry, it is my movie making mind again. In which I love Washington State Laws, as much as I love Tx law. And I have my CWP. 🙂 If you break into my house I have a right to shoot you. (I just have to make sure that the kick of the bullet does not take you off my property line.) I have made sure that my children have taken a gun saftey class in which they get to handle real guns. I take my 12 year old to the range a few times a month (Tuesdays is ladies night), and my 7 year old girl always goes when I look for my next Sig. They both were taught by me how to check a strange gun and unload properly, on many different types – Thank you Wade’s gun shop!
Like driving a car, I believe you should be required to take a course before you can legally own a gun. Not so much as you don’t know how to handle it, but how to teach others in your household on the saftey and know how of the weapon. You may not have a family now, but who knows when God might smite you and give you one. 😉
P.S. Thank you, I died and went to heaven in Krav Maga.
We are way off course here now (in a good way though as far as I can tell). I of course have my own opinion on these things and will just leave it at that…
I will continue to train in Krav any way you look at it as it is the most fun I have had in a very long time, Im in the best shape I have ever been in (even better then when I was thin…), and I have learned a tremendous amount from a few great teachers….
\”Excuse me sir, I’m about to kill you. However I need you to stand still while I call 911 to make sure I have every point covered.\” LOL – sorry, it is my movie making mind again.\”
Calicogirl:
From what you wrote after this quote, it sounds like you have some good basic (at least) training. We still have to keep this in perspective however. If someone breaks in your house, and you quietly sneak up behind him and shoot him in the back of the head it’s highly likely that you will be tried (and possibly convicted) of murder. I’m no attorney but it is my understanding that in most states, there must be an immediate threat of \”grievous bodily injury\” in order to justify the use of lethal force. Someone rifling through your underwear drawer or trying to get out of a window with your DVD player does not (from my understanding) constitute an immediate threat of \”grievous bodily injury.\” The responding police officer(s), detectives, and possibly a jury of your peers (if you are arrested and tried) must agree that any \”reasonable\” person would have feared for their life (or injury, sexual assault etc …) at the moment that the decision was made to use lethal force against an intruder, and that the decision to use lethal force was justified.
Now, all of this is theory, and we may find ourselves upon quite a slippery slope when it comes to applying the laws to what actually occurred. It could be argued that by the simple fact that someone has broken into your home while you were there, they intended to assault you – Still an execution type shooting (as described above) likely won’t be looked upon positively no matter your feelings or perception of threat. Like it or not, the dirt bags that burglarize, assault, rape, and kill are still protected by the Constitution in this country.
Incidentally, I have two young boys (five and seven). I currently own a Glock 22 (.40 cal) and a Remington 870 (12 G shotgun). They know I have the G22, but as far as I know, don’t know the Rem exists, for their own safety. I agree that gun safety should be taught to everyone in the home – However their training currently consists of DON’T TOUCH – And tell an adult if you see one!!!! When they’re older, I look forward to shooting with them but for now, the guns are kept locked and hidden, except for when I am home and have it either on me, or I know where they are in relation to the firearms at all times. Even then they are hidden and / or out of reach. Additionally, while I do keep them loaded, I do not store them with a round chambered – The boys aren’t strong enough yet, nor do they know how to chamber a round. Just too young …
\”However their training currently consists of DON’T TOUCH – And tell an adult if you see one!!!! \”
I have a different approach, I’ve been shooting small .25 and air guns since I was 6. I remember the first day and was taught how to pack tin cans with gun powder, newspaper and dirt for poor mans skeet.
I was told many times not to touch many things. You think I listened at that age when my parents were not around? I do have everything locked up in a safe box as well. But, who knows when my children go into another house and they have a child that either pulls out their parents gun, or there just happens to be a gun laying around that someone discarded. I want my children to know how to handle the situation. Know what that gun can do to other people, and that it is not a toy or just the DVD player that I don’t want you to touch because you might put peanut butter in it. We as adults get that, small kids don’t most of the time. \”Don’t touch the stove, it is hot.\” But.. They touch anyway, getting their fingers burned and only then do they really learn.
So I taught my children at a young age what firearms actually do. My daughter WILL get an adult, I know. I left my gun out unloaded just to test her. I have to make sure! Do you feel safe testing your kids to see what they would do?
I know it may be very startling for city folk. But to me, it is crazy not to know for sure. Anyway, I hope you understand the way I was raised. They didn’t hide guns, they had one behind doors – loaded. We had wild dogs that used to come and attack animals and children sometimes.
I get it – And to some degree I was raised the same way, because my father was raised in the country, and had what sounds like a similar upbringing to yours. You know what? My friends and I are lucky to be alive and have all of our appendages …
My kids shoot bb/pellet guns. I teach my kids safety and responsibility as well, but I also do all that I can to keep them from being tempted and making a mistake, by keeping the guns where they can’t get to them, and making sure that if they do, they stay away from them. Trust me I am all pro-gun. However, there are very few tragedies that compare to a child taking his or her own life, or one of their sibling or friend, because of irresponsible parenting. I’m not implying that’s you – I’m simply saying that training does not guarantee that all accidents can or will be avoided, especially with kids. Sh!t Happens in the military, Law Enforcement, Hunting, and to everyday gun owners all the time. Why risk it?
Hmmm, little kids knowing all about guns sounds strange to someone growing up in a very gun-controlled environment (me, Germany), but you are making some good points. If you are going to have guns, better make sure the kids are safe around them.
\”Guns don’t kill people, doctors do.\” 😆 Makes me think of Dr. Bob here at the NTC, he sure is lethal (in a purely KM sort of way). 😉
While you are all making good points about how to use guns safely inside the home, similar things might be said about using a gun outside of the home (if you are going to draw it in self-defense, keep your distance, so the assailant can’t grab it, problem solved). Not sure one would necessarily have to separate the two when it comes to learning gun retention. 80 million is quite a big number. With that many people owning guns, something could always go wrong during a self-defense situation.
About shooting an intruder, I wonder how easy it would really be to pull that trigger. A scary-looking, burly guy who looks as though he is about to kill you all, sure, but what if it’s just a kid carrying your stereo? Would you shoot? And if you don’t and he suddenly drops the stereo or throws it at you, then charges you before you can fire would you need the gun retention then? Or what if you do fire, but either miss or the wound is not severe enough to stop him, he continues coming forward, grabbing the gun? I’m just thinking, even using common sense, all kinds of things could happen, so better to know a gun retention technique, just in case, than not.
CLFMak,
Those knife/sword things sound as though they would be very hard to defeat, especially if the handles are also used for hammerfist strikes and such. Those things could hit you from practically any direction, so maybe your best bet would be to run for your life. 🙁
\”You know what? My friends and I are lucky to be alive and have all of our appendages … \”
Oh I laughed hard at this one.. I remember all the stuff we used to blow up in the feild with various degrees of dynomite. I am amazed at all the stuff we got away with.
My 12 year old son asked me the other day – \”If I were to come up on a fight between a police officer and a bad guy, and the bad guy throws the knife before the police man even has a chance to draw his weapon and the police man goes down – would it be my responsibility to get to that police man before the bad guy does and protect him at all costs?\”
That is such a double edge question and to have your own child ask it, because he knows how much into Search and Rescue and saving people’s lives is a passion and a rush beyond anything. So my answer was a cop out. \”Lets hope nothing like that ever happens to you before you are mentally and physically ready.\”
Anything is possible when confronting an intruder. Look what happened to the Nurse in Oregon http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/08/nurse.intruder.ap/index.html
\”About shooting an intruder, I wonder how easy it would really be to pull that trigger. A scary-looking, burly guy who looks as though he is about to kill you all, sure, but what if it’s just a kid carrying your stereo? Would you shoot? And if you don’t and he suddenly drops the stereo or throws it at you, then charges you before you can fire would you need the gun retention then? Or what if you do fire, but either miss or the wound is not severe enough to stop him, he continues coming forward, grabbing the gun? I’m just thinking, even using common sense, all kinds of things could happen, so better to know a gun retention technique, just in case, than not.\”
I think this is a good observation, and also why it’s important to try to control the situation as opposed to flying around the house guns blazing! I hope that it never happens – Period. If it does, and I’m threatened (physically) either literally, or I issue a command and a hand goes inside a jacket – Whatever, I hope that I have the conviction to put my training / mindset / awareness into action. I truly believe that my life, and the lives of my family will depend on it; no matter if it’s 6 Hell’s Angels or one 16 year old with a weapon of his own.
In the scenario you describe – If a kid \”throws my stereo at me\” and climbs out the window he came through, I’m fine with that – I can always replace the stuff. However, if the stereo becomes a weapon and/or he/they is/are coming after me it’s a whole ‘nother story. I’m firing, moving, kicking to create / maintain space, keeping the gun away from him and trying to get clean shots off all the time. I have little doubt that if someone comes in my house, when I’m home, they have little problem with violence. If I’m beaten, KO’d, dead, I’m not much good to my family either at that moment or in the future. No one is taking me from them, or gaining access to them without first suffering in the fight of their (short ass) lives!!
Incidentally, it’s well documented that a single shot, especially from a handgun is frequently not enough to stop a person unless you’re accurate (and lucky) enough to hit a major organ – Sometimes not even then. Working in trauma, I’ve seen my share of people full of bullet holes come through the E.D. walking and talking – Some with injuries to the heart, lungs etc … This is precisely why one is trained to fire more than once (two to center mass and one to the head), similarly to Krav, until the threat ceases to be a threat. Stakes are a bit higher however, with a firearm than elbows and knees.
Calicogirl – My boys have asked similar questions, though obviously at their age not as well articulated. You called your answer a copout – Most parents (including yours truly) do that on occasion when blindsided with \”age inappropriate\” questions. (My fave \”Where do babies come from?\” 😉 My favorite answer to that? SHUT UP! 😆 ) kidding of course … Anyway, I wouldn’t say it’s a copout – In fact I think it was appropriate. Now that you’re prepared you can always go back and explain why you answered the way you did, and discuss in (a little) more detail.
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