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Bar-El: That brings up an interesting point. I wonder how many criminals have martial arts training Prior to becoming criminals. I know some of them learn MA in prison as a way to prevent the violation of the bungholio. But I wonder if someone has actually interviewed criminals and come up with stats on people who had serious MA training (not so much just the kiddie stuff) prior to becoming criminals.
I have a friend that was in Kenpo his whole life. He got in trouble when he was younger over beating up one of his mom’s boyfriends. But he never has done anything really \”prison worthy\”.
I would think, just my humble opinion, that those willing to pursue the Martial Arts are generally good people and that a majority wouldnt use their training for bad. I only say this because I think most criminals are of the mind that they dont \”need\” MA because they are tough enough without it. They grew up on \”The Street\” so they dont think they need any sissy MA, besides I dont think that there are many Kobra Kai dojo’s out there accepting the dregs of society.
Overall I think that in most Martial Arts classes I think the probability of the training being used for evil (even in Krav) is low. That doesnt prevent the oddball on occasion.
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quote \”Bar-El\:After using that as a great example for self defense she actually asked me something like: \”what is the likelihood that the practitioner would become a future attacker?\”After picking my jaw up off the ground, I told her that I had never once heard of that happening.
I had a more subtle version of the same conversation just two days ago. The county where our KM facility is located, I contacted the Center for Domestic Violence in the area. I met with 12 clinicians (all women, all wearing business clothing whereas I had just come from teaching class so I was wearing standard Krav attire). They were very quick to mention that they offered anger management classes for anyone that we thought was becoming dangerous as a result of our training. I had to physically prevent myself from laughing before I explained that identifying people with anger issues in Krav Maga is probably one of the easiest things i’ve ever done, and so far we don’t have any.
That’s almost a whole different discussion-people that know the reality of the dangers (clinicians, victims themselves, social workers) and still don’t realize how much better it is to fight back than to not.
I think fear as a motivating factor is somewhat overrated. Granted, it is a very powerful motivator… but that’s also why most scam programs focus their advertising towards \”fearful\” people. There is a difference between fear and concern… a fine line, but a difference none the less. I think it is more important to focus on or encourage healthy \”concern\” for the real possibilities rather than \”fear\” which could, very easily, turn into paranoia.
I don’t know if I agree that people’s motivation for doing or not doing something can be so easily categorized into pleasure or pain, or fear or health objectives.
I think you can decipher peoples comments and then determine what is the best approach to sway them. Casting a big net with fear or pleasure/pain may work for some but not all.
People have all kinds of motivating factors. I myself was not turned on to Krav because I was feared into it. Nor was fear a continuing motivating factor to keep me coming back. Maybe the pleasure of living my life without the intrusion of bad guys(fear of bad guys?) was a motivating factor, but truthfully another component is that I always thought ninja stuff(read: martial arts) was cool.
I use to have lofty ideas of what could create world peace, but in the end I realized that there are a lot of bad hombre’s out there who care not one iota of you beliefs on humanity. So its best to arm yourself against such people because they exist in reality.
This is can be a foreign concept to some people who think that its not nice to hit. I argue its is even less nice to be hit. Call that a fear motivator, but I just call it reality.
Say what you want, but I believe the most dominating motivating factors for people to do things or not are pleasure and pain–reward and consequence.
Ryan, I see your point. Perhaps then instead of focusing on the consequence of not learning self defense(i.e. being a victim etc.) then we should focus arguements on the reward aspect(i.e. better health, living to fight another day etc.).
That makes good sense to me and after reading my post I can see that my own logic was laden with pleasure and pain motivators. Thanks for the opinion.
No problem!
I do think there is much to be said for the \”reward\” aspect (strength-based interventions), though I don’t discount the consequence, since that’s what it takes for some people.
I think a big part of self-defense is awareness, and just because someone is taking KM it doesn’t mean they have that kind of awareness that helps to keep them safe.
I would guess that most random attacks are complete surprises to the victim. They happen when you’re walking along, daydreaming or otherwise, and not paying attention to your surroundings. In that circumstance, even if you’re trained, you’re starting the fight behind the 8-ball. If you have even just your ‘spidey-senses’ tingling, you’d be much more likely to react, fight, and succeed.
I’m not a fan of paranoia or living in fear either, but a dose of reality can wake up the awareness. You don’t have to be afraid to walk down the street, but not being aware of the potential danger points on the street is handicapping yourself unneccesarily.
Ryan, thanks for the post about Lt. Colonel Grossman. I found a site called http://www.ejectejecteject.com that has an article, Tribes, written by Bill Whittle. He quotes from Lt. Colonel Grossman.
However, early on in the article he makes a statement about people who \”….step up to the plate, not because they want to be heroes, but because someone has to do it.\”
How would you say that fits into the pleasure/pain or reward/consequence thought process?
I would say it depends on the circumstance. Let’s say I don’t want to go to work, but the pain of no food, house, power, etc. motivates me to do it anyway. Also, the reward of doing extra work because I want to take a vacation (the pleasure of the reward outweighing the lack of wanting) could be a motivator.
I don’t know the context, but I’d venture to say it still applies. 😉
Bar-El, I think you’re starting to get into the egoism vs. altruism debate. The egoist would say that true altruism doesn’t exist, we do what we do for \”selfish\” reasons even when they appear to be altruistic. For example, the egoist would say that the person who \”steps up to the plate\” does so for \”selfish\” reasons. He / she cannot bear the \”pain\” of doing nothing so they act thereby avoiding their own discomfort (even if it means putting themselves at risk). The egoist does not put a negative connotation to selfishness in this regard, it’s just our nature. This goes hand in hand with pain and pleasure as motivators.
P.S. I’ve been waiting a long time to philosophy degree to practical use!
\”I think a big part of self-defense is awareness…\”
\”Awareness\” That’s the word i was looking for.
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