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I thought this deserved it’s own thread.
To recap for those who have yet to see it in the grove scene the female instructor does a multiple attacker scenario where several of her students jump out from behind trees and she does a defense.
However on closer look she is never confronted by more then one attacker at a time. She basically goes from one guy – pause – next guy – pause.
However when it’s Doug from the shows turn there are several attackers from all directions, add to this that when she was doing the defense she tossed a few techniques they were done and she moved on. This was not the case for the Doug, they never went down even when he did a decent defense. So his attackers kept accumulating until he was overwhelmed.
At one point he was facing several attackers when someone came from behind a tree behind him and did some kind of flying kick thing into his back knocking him down. At which point the throng took advantage of it and beat him.
Last night there were a few of us instructors standing around talking about it and one says you or Jarret could do it. And I thought about it and said no I couldn’t I would have ended up on the ground getting my head stomped in. For one simple reason the rules weren’t fair and were set up for the defender to fail.
In some of the other threads I see comments about how we need to do more realistic drills like the one in the grove. I disagree because it wasn’t realistic at all unless the point of the drill is to overwhelm the defender leaving him feeling completely defenseless.
In my opinion the drill is useless because it’s a no win scenario. At least it was in the form they showed it on the show. You obviously can’t maim or kill your attacker so the attacker has to cooperate and acknowledge you did the defense. The show basically portrayed him being attacked by a horde of zombies who unless you decapitate them are going to keep getting back up no matter what you do.
At the end of the show where the Jimmy was in the middle and was individually attacked by various weapons etc that’s the kind of controlled drill that students will learn from and be able to test their situational awareness and aggression.
Being over run by undead zombies is reality tv hoopla.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
Great post Sean and even better analysis. I wasn’t sure what the whole point of changing the rules for the actor was. It isn’t going to help his confidence or aggression to put him in a position to fail when his only way to win is actually maim, cripple, or otherwise hurt the attackers. If you are in a trainer scenario that then turns into a full self defense situation(fear and possibility of bodily harm) it would pretty difficult not to flip that switch and increase the chances of injury. I think it was just a bad siutation all together but at what point do you just REALLY defend yourself when you do not have the option os getting away from the situation.
I know when we train here we KNOW the objective isn’t to hurt each other but this scenario was past that I think and I felt almost ashamed that this was a portrayal of KM in a public forum.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
quote Raneman:I know when we train here we KNOW the objective isn’t to hurt each other but this scenario was past that I think and I felt almost ashamed that this was a portrayal of KM in a public forum.I agree wholeheartedly. That crap with her hitting the guy with an elbow right at the start should have earned her a butt-kicking (perhaps I should post this in the thread about hitting women…). Krav Maga is better than what they portrayed. A sad situation, indeed.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
Exactly! At one point she says ìpick up a stick and use it!î my first thought was God help them if I get a hold of a weapon.
One of my favorite sayings when someone goes to hard is ìI didnít know it was that kind of a party or I would have dressed for the occasionî
Clearly the actor did not understand what he was getting into, and even if he did what were his alternatives? Faced with the same situation Iím not sure how I would react or as you pointed out at what point do you need to REALLY defend yourself because you fear for your life. In that scenario a more trained fighter may in fact be forced to leave a trail of hurt bodies if for no other reason then self preservation.
I probably would have attacked her, stacked her between me and her students poised to snap her neck if they stepped forward.
I like to call that the Kobayashi Maru defense ñ think outside the box for the solution.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
EXCELLENT thread. I am HOPEFULL that ALL KM instructors nationwide do not get influenced by that show. In fact, I think KMWW should put out a memo to every single school immediately on this. The current KM training is excellent and there is always room for improvement but what we saw on Fight Quest was for TV. Thats not how people should train.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I would be willing to bet they didn’t tell the actor what was actually going to happen because I doubt he would subject himself to that type of abuse.
I think she was using the tv opportunity to prove a point but the only point it put across for me is that they are doing nothing but hurting the KM image and disgracing themselves.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I was in CO when the episode aired, but I got to watch it while there, and I was regretting my decision to run commercials during the show. To me, the instructors and students came off like a bunch of thugs, more interested in “proving” something than educating anyone. I wasn’t impressed.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I noticed that as well in the palm grove he was definitely givin a different standard, obviously she wanted to give him a sort of “hell week” from the start. I was pretty impressed with his reaction to the elbow though. He looked kinda shocked but took it in stride.
I think she was going over the top for the cameras but the kid did a good job. Too bad more technique wasn’t shown.
P.S Is anyone familiar with this “lady” Is she well known in the Krav community?
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
quote Ryan:To me, the instructors and students came off like a bunch of thugs, more interested in “proving” something than educating anyone. I wasn’t impressed.VERY WELL SAID!
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
Hmmm, I taped it, so I’ll take another look at the scene. Overall, I think this type of training, walking alone through some area, such as a palm grove/forest/garage/street and have attackers jump out at random is a great idea. However, it has to be fair, in that the attackers will play along somewhat and acknowledge when they have been hit or the defense has been made. If you do this and mess up the defense, I guess it’s okay if the attacker stabs you with the fake knife, or hits you (lightly!) with the stick, just so you can see that you did it wrong, but there’s no reason to get overly abusive, especially with someone who is still new at this.
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GiantkillerRe: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I’ve not see this Fight Quest show (I’ve pretty much written off most TV, I don’t have cable and I have not watched a show regularly probably since 2002).
It is my opinion that all those “reality” shows are scripted at some level, in general if not in the details.
It sounds like this show is some sort of cross between Jackass and Survivor. I’m sure there are a number of viewers that tune in just to see some guys act foolish and get beaten up every week.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I watched the show and sorta laughed at alot of but, I figured that maybe some of the instructor will things away from the show. Hopefully they will take away some of the exercises and modify them to be more toward what will work in a classroom setting.
Hopefully not the kill everyone approach to things.
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
I trained 1 day with Avivit in NY last summer. I think she is a good instructor in conventional environment. I think someone mentioned that she is also member of Israel Judo Olympic team. I noticed difference between training methods at NY KMF and my KMW scool they are more formal and seniority oriented..
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
Some of my friends were laughing at the difference between the instructor’s grove experience and Doug’s. I didn’t really have a problem with the ease of her walk-through because I thought she was just doing a demo so there wasn’t a need for her attackers to go hard. I assumed Doug (who I don’t think it’s appropriate to call an actor) was briefed on how hard the attackers would go when he went. I could be wrong about that, of course, but I think it’s important to remember that 95+% of his and Jimmy’s experience is edited out so we don’t know how briefed they are.
The editing can be deceptive – if I hadn’t seen the full Savate episode I would have thought, based on one of the commercials, that the instructor had threatened Jimmy. So I hope that some of the uglier aspects of the episode (like the elbow) weren’t as bad in reality (the non-TV version that is).
Having said that, I did feel sorry for the guy when the attackers started to stack up in the grove. It did seem a little pointless, but then again, the episode didn’t spend much time on the techniques or rationale behind Krav. It was clear from some of the scenes, like the fight at the end, that Doug had learned Krav techniques, and learned them quickly. I thought it was unfortunate that they didn’t really show much of that training because that is one of the best things about Krav: effective techniques that can be learned relatively quickly.
CJs Dad wrote “I probably would have attacked her, stacked her between me and her students poised to snap her neck if they stepped forward.”
Just out of curiosity, do you think it would have been as easy as you make it sound? Especially given her Krav black belt and Judo expertise? Me, I would have just run…
Re: Fight Quest ñ Grove Multi Attacker Scene
The part about this “drill” that really got on my nerves was that after she defended against the last attacker she said something to the effect of, “they’re all dead”. That shows just how much she was acting it up for the camera. All this episode showed was how to beat up a student krav-style. Shameful.
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