Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

[satilan]

Okay, so I watched the Fight Quest Krav Maga episode and just thought I will share some of my comments and insight about Israeli KM, both civilian and military.

WARNING: long post.
I split the post into parts for your convenience.
Please feel free to skip to any part of this post, or all of it if you want

Disclaimer: Everything in this is based upon my own opinions and thus, is rooted plainly on my experiences from Israel. So if you donít agree, please donít judge and also fell free to open a discussion about this fascinating topic.

My Background: Real quick, just so that you know where Iím coming from (Fell free to skip this). I grew up in Netanya, Israel and train with Haim Gideon, Yigal Arbiv and later with Gabi Noach. I started training in 1999 I was 15 at the time. Went all the way to Green Belt. Then, I had to stop my civilian KM training because I went to serve in the Israeli Navy. I spent almost three years on an Israeli Fast Missile Boat where I had 12 sailors under my command. I moved to Los Angeles two years ago and started training at the excellent Sherman Oaks KM center about six months ago.

Intro:
Seems to me like a great episode, I enjoyed it way more than the equivalent Human Weapon episode, which was filled with exaggerations, errors, and generalizations.
Doug trained with a civilian instructor named Avivit Cohen. She is a level 2 black belt and started training under Haim Zut. Israel has seen a lot of KM ìspin offsî and Haim Zutís federation appears to be one of them.
Jimmie trained with the KM officers/instructors of the Israeli Defense Force at the Wingate Institute, near my home town of Netanya (Shoutout).

Aggression:
At the beginning of the episode, they start Jimmie off with pure aggression training. He still doesnít know anything about KM and they throw him in a circle of like 10 men. This is typical military Krav Maga training program doctrine. Because they donít have much time with each soldier, they donít put a lot of emphasis on proper technique. Instead, thereís a lot more emphasis on pure aggression training. Another important value taught by the military program and the civilian gyms is familiarity with physical situations. In their daily lives, people are not used to getting hit, pushed/pulled, and/or chockedÖ so a large part of aggression training is learning to get hit and to think and react under pressure. This is why, for example, all classes shown in the episode include sparring as an integral part of the class and not as a separate class. Ran Nakash, the head instructor for the military KM prog. keeps saying that he trains soldiers to react under the pressure of being under fire. I think itís obvious why they do this ñ but itís not KM. ìKrav Maga classesî in the military, like I said before consist of more than just techniqueÖ so part of these classes is getting beat up and rolling in the sand. To teach a person that he can think under pressure they military KM prog. first breaks that person down, demoralizes and humiliates themÖ then they slowly mold them into anything the wantÖ Iím sure that any US military personnel reading this will know what Iím talking about. With the military prog, all technique demonstrated here was done by officers of KM. These people are usually veterans of at leas 3-5 years of civilian KM from before the military.

Humiliation:
There was a lot of humiliation of Doug and Jimmie in this episode. Avivit elbows Doug in the face when she demonstrates in front of the class, yet you donít see her doing it again on anyone. I donít know why she did it, our instructors would usually keep us pretty safeÖ but she mightíve wanted to show ìthis Americanî that he is nothing ñ to humiliate him. As further proof, she later refers to him as ìthe tough American [that came into the water] with socksî. Then, she has Doug face many men in 30 seconds each. This has two aims, not only to introduce him to KM but also to show him heís nothing by humiliating him. When Americans would come to train with us in Israel we would usually get instructions to go extremely hard on them, because theyíre weak. More proof of this is shown later in the episode when Jimmie goes to similar, albeit more subtle examples of this mentality. In his final preparation fight, all KM instructors fighting him visibly went for his thighs. In the final ìfightî itself, they were actually yelling to each other to go for his left thigh, eventhough they knew it was literally destroyed. Although this has some value for aggression trainingÖ it is kind of cruel and stops you from really learning, IMO at least.

Realism:
Did you see how they only wore teeth guards and gloves when they sparred at the civilian KM gym? They probably had groin protection as wellÖ People expect to get hit while practicing KM in Israel and because itís not a ìlitigationî culture, it allows for better ways of training, with minimal protection. Doug was also punching the bags bear fist. One more thing, we never train in palm groves or in the Dead Sea ñ Itís all for the show. I suspect that most ìexoticî work-out places in Human Weapon and in Fight Quest are all set up by the showís production team. The only Israeli location that I think is real would be the sea shore at the Wingate institute where Jimmie fought on the ground. This army base is actually adjacent to the largest sports center in Israel and is located on the beachÖ therefore they use it a lot. The only negative comment I really have about military KM in Israel is that, as youíve seen they werenít going to the face for some reason, even though they were using large boxing gloves. This baffles me, it is against everything they believe in.

Hope this wasnít too long for you guys to read.
I apologize.
Feel free to comment and reply.
Satilan.

[stevetuna]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Thanks for that review and insight. I was all ready to watch this show when I got called in to work!!! I hope it will be available on demand soon.

[kravmaniandevil]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Great read. Thanks for taking the time to post. I think what last night’s show demonstrated or at least made me remember is that Krav Maga more is a mentality. Its all about aggression, pushing forward, never stopping and never say die. It was good to be reminded of all that again.

[kmman]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Sat—thanks for your viewpoint. Much appreciated and even though I have none of the experience you do I agree and felt the same.

I would, however, hate to think Israelis think of the U.S. as weak. Last I heard we have some soldiers over there in the Middle East fighting those who are hell bent on destroying Israel.

[satilan]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote KMMAN:

I would, however, hate to think Israelis think of the U.S. as weak. Last I heard we have some soldiers over there in the Middle East fighting those who are hell bent on destroying Israel.

Don’t get me wrong. Israelis love America and Americans… I did not mean that Israel is not GREATLY aware of the important role the U.S. plays in their existance…

Israelis and Americans cooporate daily to bring security and peace to that region of the world… we fight, train, and think together – both militarily and in KM.

Let me clarify:
I just said that they used to tell us that THOSE americans that were there to train with us were weak b/c their training is not as brutal as ours… and that we need to show them (through humiliation) what we are worth, and that only then they will learn.

Me and my buddy were in charge of this guy that came from Miami to train… Our instructor kept switching us to spar with him over and over… he kept telling us that when we switch to tell each other where the guy was hurting so we can hurt him some more… sooner tha later the guy couldn’t stand on his legs his thighs were so sore… they turned stone hard on him and we kept roundhouse kicking his thighs… at the time this made perfect sense, I was 17, but in retrospect – it is a pretty dumb and mean thing to do to a guy that flew in from half a world away just to learn with us.

By no means I believe that Americans are weak… most of them are pretty big and furious… I can tell, I train with some beasts…
rofl2

[kmman]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Thanks for that reply. I appreciate your insight.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote Satilan:

By no means I believe that Americans are weak… most of them are pretty big and furious… I can tell, I train with some beasts…

Hey who you calling a beast?

In all seriousness I always enjoy having you in class both as a student and a training partner. Long before you started posting here in the forums you were a great perspective into what life and KM was like in Israel.

Thankís for your contributions~

[satilan]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote CJs Dad:

Hey who you calling a beast?

In all seriousness I always enjoy having you in class both as a student and a training partner. Long before you started posting here in the forums you were a great perspective into what life and KM was like in Israel.

Thankís for your contributions~

Thanks “CJ’s Dad”.
How did you know I meant you??? I’m actually taking some time off due to an eye condition that’s supposed to go away. But I will gladly train with you again.

[resqr1]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

I am going to add a little about the female who was training…HA more like intentionally humiliating…Doug. What I saw leads me to have little respect for her and her crew. It seemed to be more like a gang of thugs, who know what they are doing, picking on the little guy who has no clue as to what he just walked into. Not very respectful or respect earning in my book. I have trained for 21 years, not in Krav, and any instructor who walks up to the new guy and blasts him in the face with an elbow shouldn’t be an instructor. Especially when they have no clue what’s about to happen. That immediately brought one word to mind…BULLY. Then all they do is beat the hell out of him. The part where they are outside in the grove was terrible. She didn’t teach him a thing. Just left him to his own skill to fight her guys. Then when he gets on the ground she screams at him that he is dead. Excuse me?? That is absolute defeatist training. An instructor should NEVER tell a student they are dead. You react the way you train. So, if I get to the ground I’m dead? Hardly!!! She would have been way ahead to show him how to either get back up or how to WIN on the ground.

The military guys were very impressive. They at least showed the other guy (forgive me I can’t remember his name) what they expected and how to do some techniques.

That said, I also believe that the female was making every attempt to show up the American MALE, not show him Krav Maga.

The military guys appeared very sincere and helpful. I’m guessing they felt they had nothing to prove.

Sorry if This is long winded but I was sincerely hoping for a better display of Krav Maga from Doug’s half of the show.

[satilan]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote resqr1:

I am going to add a little about the female who was training…HA more like intentionally humiliating…Doug. What I saw leads me to have little respect for her and her crew. It seemed to be more like a gang of thugs, who know what they are doing, picking on the little guy who has no clue as to what he just walked into. Not very respectful or respect earning in my book.

I must agree, as I said, it was all about humiliation of Doug. But it was done for one reason only: to teach him the importance of fighting. He had no choice but to go full force and to use every tool to his disposal to fight for his life… And of course, there is some “let’s humiliate the new guy” aspect – which is the part I must agree on.

quote resqr1:

The part where they are outside in the grove was terrible. She didn’t teach him a thing. Just left him to his own skill to fight her guys. Then when he gets on the ground she screams at him that he is dead. Excuse me?? That is absolute defeatist training.

I disagree, she explained – and was 100% right, that getting on the ground is VERY risky on the street… because you can probably take the other guy out if you’re a good ground fighter (like Doug) but you may never know who else is there to stomp your face while you’re on the ground concentrating on the first attacker. It is absolutely not defeatist thinking… it is the very opposite… going to the ground on the street is very bad… stay on your feet, stay alert to the presence of other combatants and keep fighting. She even wanted him to use whatever is around him to “cheat” and destroy the others… like sand in the eyes and fallen branches. This is Krav Maga, and it’s about two things only: go home safe and make your enemy go to the hospital.

quote resqr1:

An instructor should NEVER tell a student they are dead. You react the way you train. So, if I get to the ground I’m dead? Hardly!!! She would have been way ahead to show him how to either get back up or how to WIN on the ground.

Let me restate what I said before, she is teaching him how to win. He can win if he avoids getting on the ground – very simple. “You are dead” means that he had made a crucial mistake that should be avoided… in training, one can make these mistakes and it’s far better to “die” in training then to kinda really die… I don’t think anyone can dispute this.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote Satilan:

Thanks “CJ’s Dad”.
How did you know I meant you???

It wasnít a far stretch LOL

Get well soon~

[satilan]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote CJs Dad:

It wasnít a far stretch LOL

Get well soon~

Don’t worry, I will.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Actually Alejandro makes a good point I actually agree with what she was doing yelling at him that his was dead.

We were doing multiple attacker scenarios and Sam was instructing, I took out the first guy he went down the 2nd attacker shot in on me we went down together as I sprawled, I scrambled to the mount and started hammering him,

Sam stuck a gun to the back of my head and said bang you’re dead. That drove the point home very clearly I had made a mistake and discounted the first attacker regaining consciousness and re-attacking me with a weapon.

I made a critical error in tactics that cost me and I learned from it, at least I’d like to think I did. Now I stack people out of habit long before we ever hit the ground, if I go down I get up and re-stack even a downed opponent.

Sam taught me a very important lesson, a few in fact and showing me I had just allowed myself to be killed was an extremely valuable one.

Reminds me of certain a DI “you just killed everyone in your squad how do you feel about that”

[satilan]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

quote CJs Dad:

Actually Alejandro makes a good point I actually agree with what she was doing yelling at him that his was dead.

We were doing multiple attacker scenarios and Sam was instructing, I took out the first guy he went down the 2nd attacker shot in on me we went down together as I sprawled, I scrambled to the mount and started hammering him,

Sam stuck a gun to the back of my head and said bang youíre dead. That drove the point home very clearly I had made a mistake and discounted the first attacker regaining consciousness and re-attacking me with a weapon.

Oh wow, we need to do this type of scenarios more…
It is very important to practice combat vs. mutiple attackers and also situational awareness and utilization of one’s environment against an opponent (such as in scattering rubber knives, sticks, and focus mits around the mat and having a free for all).

Another good idea, but this time to develop aggression would be a game similar to football where two teams can use any type of attacks to bring a rubber ball to the other side of the room… But this is for a different thread.

In all, I feel there can be many types of exercises that we don’t do…

[cjs-dad]

Re: Fight Quest Krav Maga – My Observations

Actually we do them all the time in fight class (wheres Jay and his psycho drills comment) And in level 3 ñ 4 almost every class. Miriam did a pretty good job of trying to kill me a few weeks ago. thumbsup

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