Gun Disarm – Revolvers

[magnum]

I have been reading up on gun disarms and reading a newly purchased Krav Maga book. In all situations pictures are shown disarming a semi-automatic.

The book I am reading did mention revolvers and the fact that in single action the trigger takes very little pressure to fire. I hope in training the fact of a revolver in SA mode can be very dangerous to redirect. It will most likely fire. (As I type this – I notice the banner above with a revolver in DA mode being used).

But, that is not the real point I wanted to make. A revolver when fired can deliver a devastating blast from the sides of the cylinder, especially any 357 mag or higher. On a semi-auto all gases are directed out the muzzle so grabbing and disarming I can see and understand.

Any advice on disarming with a revolver? I tend to think I am over complicating this, but I have seen the damage done when someones finger was to close to the sides of a revolver when discharged. It could potentially take that hand out of the fight.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Ironically, that’s me in the green shirt and my python.

I think one of our LE range masters might be able to answer this question a little better but I would think the important part of all handgun techniques would be the addressing of the immediate danger and redirect the line of fire – no matter what kind of projectile weapon.

I’ve actually thought of another issue that if the weapon is discharged accidentally and the attackers grip already loose with a larger caliber there’s potential for recoil to smack the defender in the side of the head.

I guess better to be hit with the recoiling weapon then the intended projectile.

[magnum]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

I can see the resemblance in the photo:) Absolutely line of fire is a must getting away from that muzzle is first priority.

Owning a Python I am sure you know the blast that comes from it in the dark. I have seen people almost blow their thumbs off from that blast, and in fact, I have actually seen a thumb blown off from a .460 (pics). Although I doubt many robbers are going to be using a .460 to rob you with.

I would think the recoil would be to your advantage, the BG may not be able to hold the gun and fight the recoil as well. If they are not trained in one handed shooting especially.

My guess is with a revolver, redirecting the hand (thus the muzzle) like is being done in your picture above is the better approach.

[vwr32]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote CJs Dad:

Ironically, thatís me in the green shirt and my python.

quote Magnum:

Owning a Python I am sure you know the blast that comes from it in the dark.

rofl… I thought cj’s dad was referring to his arm when he said “python”. Gotcha… it’s a COLT PYTHON. I was thinking, “Gee, aren’t we modest.” Shows how much I know about handguns.
rofl2

Man, she’s kicking your butt too.

[magnum]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote vwr32:

Man, she’s kicking your butt too.

I was going to say that, then I did notice how big his arm was and decided not too.:OhMy:

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

The Picture of the “.460” incident that you are referring to is being researched right now and most people in the know (including all of the armory staff) that I have spoken to think that it is highly improbable that the gas escaping from the cylinder gap caused the damage to the thumb. On most modern revolvers, the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone (the back of the barrel) is around 4 thousandths of an inch (on the .460’s, it is even less, as those guns are hand fitted at the Smith Performance Center shop). The escaping gas could cause some small damage, but not anything that would remotely resemble the level of tissue damage seen in the pictures you mention. Based on the limited photos that I’ve seen, I think that the thumb was probably in front of the muzzle. Even if the revolver was severely out of time (that means the chamber in the cylinder was not lined up properly with the forcing cone) the resulting bullet shavings would not render any type of injury that would take a hand out of the fight. As you have mentioned, the resultant light show that occurs when shooting a revolver in the dark is impressive, but mostly harmless (as an aside, this is also why revolvers can’t be outfitted with silencers. If the revolver was so out of time and had a Cylinder gap that was so horrendously out of spec, the damage to the forcing cone after the first round impacted it would render the gun incapable of further use. Big revolvers have been around a long time, and even the older, retired LAPD range personel that I’ve spoken to, have never heard of escaping gasses causing serious injury, so I would not let that be a cause for concern during a disarm situation. I myself have fired hundreds of rounds from a 2 inch J frame from the close contact position (where the offending cylinder gap is against my ribs) and the escaping gas has never even torn a shirt. Same thing with the thousands of Police recruits that passed through the Academy while I was assigned there.

As far as dealing with a light trigger during a disarm, I think that it is important to remember that we are dealing with the Cretin”s perception and reaction time rather than it’s ability to actually press the trigger. The difference in time it takes to press a 2lb trigger and a 6lb trigger is statistically insignifigant.

I hope this was helpful. BTW, the picture of Jarret A. whooping on Sean is the control position from a gun to the back scenario, not a control position from a common gun to the front scenario.

Cheers!

[bull1189]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

I have had the extremely unfortunate experience of an A/D while handling a Model 19 (.357) that had an out of tolerance gap, that also caused it to shave lead. This was many years ago, and the index finger of my right hand was adjacent to the gap, touching the firearm. Yes, it was my own dumb fault, and yes I learned from it (I was 19 and had no knowledge of guns at the time and no business messing with the gun). It hurt, it left a mark, but it in no way disabled me or my ability to use my hand.

Now, my ability to keep my shorts clean, that was a different story.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Thanks for the helpful comments JS.

On another note: The photo is actually a little off, I‘m literally over a foot taller then her so I’m really bent down for the picture.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote CJs Dad:

Thanks for the helpful comments JS.

On another note: The photo is actually a little off, Iëm literally over a foot taller then her so Iím really bent down for the picture.

Should have got me or La Rev to pose! LOL.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Why? I’m still a foot taller then La Rev

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Naw, I meant instead of you, as we’re both closer to Jarrets height. It was a joke, you ruined it. Thanks……..

[cjs-dad]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

Naw, I meant instead of you, as we’re both closer to Jarrets height. It was a joke, you ruined it. Thanks……..

I think the fresh air during your camping trip is getting to you. Shouldn’t you be making smoors or something?

[magnum]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Jeremy,

If you have some info that discredits those pics please PM me I would be interested to pass it on to other instructors I know. However, the people you are quoting as “in the know” seem to be close to the mfg. Remember, there are always 2 sides to the story and for years Ford denied the Pinto would explode:)

I can understand your comments on the 2in J frame and it makes sense. With a 2″ barrel the bullet exists much faster, therefore the blast from the cylinder will be less as the pressure will drop when the bullet exists the barrel and the remaining powder burns outside the barrel. However, on a 6″ gun like the Ruger that bit me the pressure will build up a lot more as the powder continues to burn as the bullet goes down the barrel. In my case the blast was enough knock my hand back, had a very nasty burn and it felt like someone had smashed it with a hammer. That was with a Ruger 357. Lesson learned, that gun is too big to shoot one handed for me and it is strictly a range gun.

You are incorrectly comparing trigger pulls. A 2 lb trigger and a 6 lb trigger is different only when firing in DA mode, the weight of the trigger is insignificant in SA mode. The length of the trigger pull is the issue. I was referring to SA mode which when a revolver is in SA mode the length of pull is very short – virtually no slack. Just a slight tap on the trigger and the gun will fire. That is why most Police departments started requiring LEOs carry a DA pistol. Because there were several incidents where a LEO went to handcuff someone and the reflex of handcuffing was enough to cause their other hand to tighten and fire the SA revolver killing the guy that was handcuffed. I think it was the LAPD that started that practice over 30 years ago.

[cottonwood-combat]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

The AD to which Magnum refers to sounds like a Sypathetic Discharge rather than an Accidental Discharge (which I personally believe is really a Negligent Discharge). It can happen in relation to a Startle Affect Discharge of the firearm as well. In the example given though, the officer was cuffing and fired his weapon, correct? This would have been due to a Sympathetic Reflex which in my experience has little to nothing to do with trigger pull poundage. It’s the body’s unilateral reflex to one side of the body doing something and the other follows suit. So as one hand was cinching a cuff (probably with an index finger) the index finger on the other bent in like fashion thus pressing the trigger. So I am really not following the change from single action to double action requirement by Agencies. I know I am off point a little here, but I want to better understand. Was this decision before the LE community better understood the different reasons for non-intentional discharges of a firearm? I’ve never really been a revolver shooter and so I am not too savvy on the LE history with them.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Magnum,
I have spoken at length with several armorers, not just my LAPD brothers, as well as several of my fellow gunwriters at intermedia outdoors( the guns and ammo family of magazines) and we can find no further information about the .460 Internet posts. If anything comes up, I’ll post it.
in regards to the amount of time the bullet stays in the barrel increasing the pressure and escaping gas, you are of course correct. This does not negate my prior statements, as the escaping gas would still not be enough to cause a fight ending injury. My experience with revolvers in close contact is not limited to the two inch, and does include the big magnums, including the X frame Smith in 500. The closest I’ve come to getting injured was standing next to a badly out of time Model 13 during trigger drills and having to pick a piece of copper jacket out of my palm. Annoying yes, fight stopping no.
As far as the trigger weight issue, I stand by my statement that you are competing against perception and reaction time (ooda loop), not the time it takes to press the trigger. If we were competing against the trigger press, we would lose every time regardless of trigger weight or distance of trigger pull. That being said, it would still theoritically take more time to overcome the distance of a DA press compared to a SA press, but in a close quarters self defense scenario, the time difference would be insignificant.

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